Matthew Ian Fleming on Compass: Finding spirituality in the everyday. Matthew dives deep into the enigmatic Book of Revelation, shedding light on its broader message of hope, justice, and new creation, far from its often misinterpreted doom and gloom reputation. Learn about his unique approach to understanding Revelation, anchored by Psalm 139, and its relevance in contemporary society.
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Matthew Ian Fleming, author of "The End is the Beginning: Revelation, Hope, and the Love that Lit the Stars," and leader of Church Anew, discusses his perspective on Revelation as a misunderstood text. Addressing complex themes like the impact of historical contexts, the metaphorical images of a new heaven, city, and garden, and the role of Christians in opposing injustice, Matthew invites us to see Revelation as a source of hope and spiritual introspection.
Discover how worship influenced by Revelation can transform individuals and communities, and revisit the concept of the rapture, challenging its historical roots. This conversation is an invitation to engage deeply with Revelation, seeing it as relevant today, amid modern crises like polarization, climate change, and violence. Matthew has dedicated his work to helping people find spiritual reflection and justice through understanding Revelation. Join us as we explore these profound themes aimed at rekindling faith and hope.
Episode Notes:
Matthew Ian Fleming explores the Bible with curiosity, wonder, and a dash of irreverence. A skilled digital entrepreneur, Fleming launched and leads Church Anew, which creates fresh content and vibrant gatherings for the church that is becoming. Fleming produces the Cafeteria Christian podcast and cofounded the Alter Guild network, which has more than 750,000 downloads across the platform. A pastor in the ELCA and based in the Minneapolis area, Fleming sings unrequested car-duets with his spouse and religiously bakes sourdough bread with their two daughters.
Website: churchanew.org
Instagram: @matthewianfleming
In this episode:
(00:00) Revelation: new creation, hope, justice, not doom.
(04:01) U2 and a hope and longing for God.
(06:52) The Bible: Witness to God's diverse, living voice.
(09:42) Christianity's evolving relevance amid modern societal crises.
(15:07) Let's talk about the Rapture.
(19:01) Equip people to understand Revelation, prevent misinformation.
(21:19) Psalm 46, Romans 8, and Psalm 139 anchored.
(24:28) Contextualize violence, empire, and Christian subversion.
(30:27) Worship inspires community transformation and unity.
(32:48) Revelation encourages hope, community, and active faith.
(36:21) Podcast resumes January 8, 2025.
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This episode posted on December 11, 2024
Episode Transcript:
Ryan Dunn [00:00:01]:
Welcome to compass finding spirituality in the everyday. I'm Ryan Dunn and I don't feel like there's enough doom and gloom in the world. How about you? We need to amp up the anxiety. Don't we like more darkness, more defeat, right? So we're gonna dive into Revelation and apocalypse in the bitter end of all things. Okay. I'm just kidding. Sort of, sort of kidding. We're talking about revelation in this episode.
Ryan Dunn [00:00:29]:
That's the final book of the Bible. It's often pointed towards as a blueprint for the end of the world, but we're gonna see a bit different side of revelation in this episode. Not a side that's about doom and gloom in the end, but one that is about a new creation and hope and justice. Our guide for this romp through revelation is Matthew Ian Fleming. Matthew has given us the book, the end is the beginning, revelation, hope, and the love that lit the stars. Matthew launched and leads church anew, which creates fresh content and vibrant gatherings for the church that is becoming. He is a pastor in the evangelical Lutheran church in America and is based in Minneapolis and possibly like you grew up hearing warnings about being left behind or that the antichrist walked among us or that any day Jesus could return with a big sword and start chopping people. So if that sounds like you, or you're just curious about things like the rapture, the end times and the second coming, this episode is for you.
Ryan Dunn [00:01:37]:
Now speaking of the end of things, 2024 is coming to a close. As this episode comes out, this episode will be our last one of the year as we'll take a short break for the holidays. So our next compass episode will be out to you January 8, 2025. Looking forward to sharing some new year's hope with you, but back to the present, let's meet Matthew Ian Fleming here on compass. Pastor Matthew, you and I share, it seems like a bit of a, theological heritage in that. I also spent a lot of time riding around in church fans, arguing about radio stations and listening to K LOVE and the like, so just out of curiosity, bands like newsboys, delirious, auto adrenaline, 3rd day, those bands from the early odds. Like, what CCM band from that generation are you still likely to rock today?
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:02:40]:
Oh, man. So I just had this conversation with somebody who was like who who came up to me at church, and they had read a chunk of my book. And he was like, you made me remember 5 Iron Frenzy. And I listened to that speech. 5 Iron Frenzy was so much fun. I go I would go back to Reliant k, actually. That was that was my jam as a as a youth. And I still listen to, a decent amount of contemporary Christian music.
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:03:05]:
We do some at church too. And Yeah. So I listen to newer stuff as well, like, oh goodness. Now I can't remember the name of the group. It's a collective. Well, anyway, he can edit that out.
Ryan Dunn [00:03:17]:
But REN Collective. I don't know. That's the only thing
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:03:19]:
I can do. Not not that one. I like some of REN Collective stuff too. But, but Reliant k I would say Reliant k is really the, the, the band that I'll still go back to and listen to every now and again. Mostly out of nostalgia, I think. It just, it does something to me. So yeah. That's
Ryan Dunn [00:03:37]:
Yeah. Speaks to a time and place in your life and
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:03:40]:
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
Ryan Dunn [00:03:43]:
Well, our conversation is really geared around, thoughts about the end times and revelation. And so this is how I'm going to execute my, my pro transition here. Do you have a favorite rapture or revelation song? Oh, man.
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:04:01]:
I love that. I think so I mentioned in the book, Peace on Earth by U2, and it's not exactly like an end time song, but I just love the feel of it. I used to perform with a band that toured over, the state of Minnesota when I was in college, and, and we sang that during Christmas time. And and it it just has this haunting hunger for God's presence that will make things better. And I think that really gets at the core. So probably not not about the rapture or about the end times, but I think it really gets us into how I read Revelation, which is a group of people who are who are hungry for God to intervene in the moments, of history and, and that apocalyptic literature can function as a way to give people hope when they don't have it.
Ryan Dunn [00:04:57]:
You know, it seems maybe this is just kind of my rose colored hermeneutic that I bring to music in general, but it seems like there are is a lot of music expressing that kind of hope or intent, you know, or even a recognition like the world isn't as it should be. We're longing for it to be as it could be. Right?
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:05:18]:
Yeah. I think, I think there's music, in all sorts of traditions that do exactly that that, you know, contemporary Christian for sure. There's some of that. But also, I think pop music, will often have, a deeply theological hunger. So one of my ponderings as a worship planner even is to see how secular and sacred those lines can be blurred, because often, music that we hear off of the K LOVE tracks, really resonates with a deep, longing for, for a different way, a better way.
Ryan Dunn [00:05:58]:
Well, I hope we can keep this conversation a little bit light given the the topic at hand. So we'll just jump in with this question. What is the Bible?
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:06:08]:
What is the Bible? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that's exactly right. So the the the book that I wrote, is a book about Revelation first.
Ryan Dunn [00:06:18]:
Yeah.
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:06:19]:
But, the way that I read the Bible is distinct than the way that I was taught. I was taught that the bible was written by God with a really, really, really, really, really long pencil, and that it goes directly into our ears and there's nothing in between. And it just so happens that there's all sorts of things. There's year there's years in between. There's context. There's cultures. There's translation. So, so I've grown to really love the interpretive, methodologies that are available to us.
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:06:52]:
They've been a gift to me in my own faith life. So I I introduced my own definition of scripture because I just think it's helpful for people to know, where I'm coming from. And it's this, it's that, that the Bible is our witness to the living voice of God, that it's a witness to God speaking in our midst. And what I love about this definition and just kind of settling into it and playing with it is that the Bible speaks from multiple vantage points, from different voices, different perspectives, different times, different cultures. And each of the books of the Bible and even different sections within each book might speak from a different, vantage point. And allowing each of those voices to speak leaves us with a chorus, rather than just one single, tome. It leaves us with a chorus or a library, of different voices that might speak, in different ways and at different times. And each each can be a gift and a challenge, a wrestling match or a struggle or, or an invitation.
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:07:58]:
So, that's, that's a little bit about how I enter the Bible.
Ryan Dunn [00:08:02]:
Yeah. And that's important to set up because it, we are going to talk quite a bit about revelation. And revelation is a book that in the Christian world, we sometimes have a hard time marking in time. So there's a school of thought that says, well, revelation speaks to events of the Roman empire centuries ago. And then there's another school of thought that says, well, revelation is this prediction of events, which have yet to occur. You are able to expound a little bit on revelation being something that is relevant to the here and now. Can you talk a little bit about why Revelation is so relevant to our modern context?
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:08:42]:
And I think I think it's because of a both end of that question. Right? That, that, yes, Revelation had a really clear well, probably clearer than it is now message to people in ancient times. Mhmm. In a time that was full of really significant change, and, and a huge Roman occupation, and that presence is is all across Revelation. You can't ignore it. And so you have to enter that imagination to actually wonder about how it might be speaking to today. And so I think it's a both and. I I think entering that, that world, John's world, and that imagine the imagination of this vision actually invites us into, seeing how it might speak and whisper and shout and scream, into today's context.
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:09:42]:
And part of that is, wondering about where we stand. So the Christian community in ancient times was not in power. It was, it was a minority, a significant minority in a, in a Roman led and ruled context. And that would change in a few short 100 years to Christianity becoming the religion of the Roman Empire. And that change is significant, And we live on the other side of that. And yet I think we live in a time where people are asking the questions of, does Christian faith have the same resonance and relevance today as it did in previous generations? And lots of people are lamenting the decline of the church and the declining significance of, of Christian perspective. So it leads us into those same sorts of conversations and questions of how do we interact with this world? I think the other, interesting contribution that that Revelation can have to today is the significant crises that we face. We face crises of of incredible polarization in in the United States context.
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:10:58]:
We we face crises of of global climate change and crises of, of violence and and wars and rumors of wars as it says in Matthew, but, but there are significant crises facing us. And the the promise of revelation is that God is in the midst of those, with promise and perseverance, and sustaining hope.
Ryan Dunn [00:11:25]:
Well, in your book, you mentioned that revelation can be a source both of, of hope and of humor. That piques my interest, pastor Matthew, what's so funny about revelation?
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:11:37]:
I mean, yeah, what is so funny about revelation? That's great. I mean so so part of it is that it gets used and misused so frequently that you have to laugh a little bit. I mean, it's the punch line to to so many jokes in popular culture, from the pearly gates. Right? How many how many jokes do we have about Saint Peter and the pearly gates?
Ryan Dunn [00:12:03]:
The only
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:12:03]:
place that the pearly gates appear are in the pages of Revelation. And it just so happens that nobody's guarding them. They're flung wide open. It's a little different than, than the jokes often insinuate. But, but I think, you know, Revelation was, was a source of a lot of fear for me growing up. And some of that was growing up with a lot of rapture theology. And so the way that I've dealt with it is by finding a way to laugh, and finding a way, to find humor in these pages. So I I don't I don't know that Revelation was intended to be a humorous book, but it is a coping mechanism and it's a way that we can actually dig in deeper to the message by laughing off the things that maybe hurt once, and wondering if there's something deeper that it might have to say to us.
Ryan Dunn [00:12:52]:
You mentioned the rapture, and it's something that has become so infused with a lot of Christian theology. Can you tell us about the rapture for, for those who may be unfamiliar? And I, I think that there's probably a significant portion of our audience for this podcast who may not be familiar with either rapture theology or where the idea of the rapture came from.
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:13:18]:
Came from. Yeah. Exactly. In fact, I was just teaching this at our own congregation this week, and I just asked for a show of hands, like, who who's had experience with the rapture? And most people knew what it was theoretically. And and I think the the clearest example is the Left Behind series. It was such a national best seller, that it became table conversation in all sorts of places where it might not have otherwise. But what I was surprised by, was someone raised their hand and said, I read Left Behind and I just figured somebody made it up. I didn't think it was I just thought it was a novel.
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:13:56]:
I had no idea it was connected to a broader theological tradition. And that was such the opposite experience to mine. When Left Behind came out, it was like, this is this is what's gonna happen. Mhmm. So just to kinda put a, put a pin in what rapture is, it is this this vision that at some point, the the the the elect, the chosen, the true believers, however you might, articulate that, will will be caught up and brought into heaven. And then there will be many who are left behind through a great time of, violence and tribulation and challenge, until ultimately, Jesus returns to make everything whole. If if that's kind of the arc of Revelation Theology and that we're on the lookout, for that time when those might be caught up. And and to put a point on it, when I was young, you know the moment where, like, you're in the grocery store and, and at 6 or 7 years old, you're looking at the cereal box on the bottom shelf and thinking, oh, if we get this cereal box, it comes with that bouncy ball, and I'll get to get the bouncy ball.
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:15:07]:
And then all of a sudden, you look up and mom is gone. It just so happens she's in the aisle next door. But I, in my, understanding, was certain that she had been raptured and I was left behind. And so not only the lostness of that moment as a little kid, but that that's guys in theology and and spirituality and an expectation that, that God might whisk away the people that I love and leave me behind, is a really fearful place to be in. So to to to go even further, revelation or rapture theology is something that emerged so much later in in Christian tradition. It's not a part of the the long standing tradition of how Christians have read revelation or or thought about Jesus' return, until the 1800 about, and it started in in the British Isles and then caught fire, among the, the revivals here in the United States, and then grew and grew into the 19 seventies and beyond, among some significant changes and shifts in in, political structures and all of the changes that were going on in the 19 sixties counterculture and then, the 2 1000, y two k and the 2 1, terrorist attacks really kind of amplified this message of these are the end times and, and we're in the midst of it. And so it gave a it gave a way of looking at, and making sense of the, the strange things in our world, but using, using the Bible in ways that really don't let the text speak for themselves. And so rapture theology provides, an angle to look at these texts, but the word rapture occurs only once in second Thessalonians.
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:17:09]:
It uses a a a passage where Jesus gets apocalyptic in Matthew 24, and then uses revelation to kind of tell a story that really doesn't hold up when you look at the texts, as at least as my reading has shown me.
Ryan Dunn [00:17:28]:
Well, what made you decide to dive so deeply into Revelation and rapture and end times theology now?
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:17:37]:
Yeah. I mean, I think one side of that answer is that Revelation has stuck with me. I I had always been curious about it as a kid and, again, growing up with a tradition like this. It was a focal point of mine. It kind of became this haunting fear in the back of my mind all the time. And so I've always had a curiosity about it. And when I taught it to our church, I found that a lot of people are curious about it. People would show up for a Bible study on Revelation when they wouldn't show up for any other Bible study.
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:18:12]:
You know, I have 10 or 15 people at Bible study. Oh, Oh, but we're gonna talk about revelation. Oh, man. Do they turn 1?
Ryan Dunn [00:18:16]:
No. It's 30. Yeah.
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:18:19]:
So that was 1. But I think I think it's really important work to give people the tools to understand, what this book says. You know, Martin Luther, who is, you know, a reformer and and part of the tradition that I serve now as a Lutheran pastor, was pretty reluctant to give revelation to people. He said, don't go there. It it it won't do any good. It'll leave you down lead you down rabbit holes that that aren't gonna help your faith. And there's some truth to that. John Calvin, one of the other reformers, wrote a commentary on every book of scripture except Revelation.
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:19:01]:
Mhmm. You know, just negating its importance in some way. And I think that in times like these, when Revelation gets turned into memes on Facebook, when revelation gets, to be, a punch line of a TikTok or or or meme elsewhere, it's really important that we give people tools to understand what's actually in the book and to at least have a framework of understanding the broader impact. So the word I've been using as I teach it is that I don't I don't wanna teach you every single verse and get you lost in the in the in the in the weeds, I want you to step back and see the overall arc of this book and be able to speak with confidence about what it means so that when you bump into somebody who might mislead you, you can say, no, I I know a bit about that book and I and I'm comfortable with where I am. It it can be a really misleading, book in the wrong hands. It can be used all of these strange images can be used to lead people down some really dangerous corners. And I really wanna equip people to know what's in it so that they might not be misled.
Ryan Dunn [00:20:17]:
Mhmm. In recognizing that fear of revelation and how people might interpret it on their own, you know, somebody is going to hear this podcast and they're going to dive in and they're going to be like, okay, so I'm not familiar with the book. I'm going to dive in and within a couple of chapters be like, I have no idea what is happening here. Is there kind of a overarching hermeneutic or lens that, you can supply for us with which we might, bring to our reading that Yeah. Might lend to some understanding, especially towards our modern day context?
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:20:55]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I I think so. The the one that I introduce in the book is Psalm 139, which is we have these anchors in our tradition. These kinda core pieces, at least in my tradition, it was memorizing scripture, that are just a key component of of who we are. And John 316, of course, is one of the the favorites.
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:21:19]:
Another one that I just taught recently is Psalm 46, God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble. And, and and, you know, Romans 8, that there's nothing that can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. I mean, there are these anchors. The anchor that I introduced at the beginning of this book is Psalm 139. Where can I go from your presence? If I rise on the wings of the morning or settle at the farthest side of the dawn, if I make my bed in the heavens or or at the depths of the pit, there you are holding me in the palm of your hand, to summarize anyway. And I think that that, as a hermeneutic, really helps people tread through revelation. That, that God is there in the midst of unbelievable violence, in the midst of of really scary things. The other thing that I'll add is that, actually reading the end of Revelation can provide a way to see where all of this is going.
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:22:26]:
There are 3 images, of what God hopes for for creation at the end of Revelation, and it's a new heaven and a new earth. Not as in wiping away and building something new, but actually tending this this chaos and turning it into something beautiful. And then the second, a new a new city, a new Jerusalem. And it's this massive city that's bigger than any city today or even in ancient times, big enough for everybody to have a room. And then finally of this new garden of of the tree of life, a new Eden, where God provides for the healing of the nations. And if you read that section first, I actually think it'll give you the conviction to to read through the whole book and know that that's where that's that's the promise. That's the promise of God to sustain, and to be present in the most trying times.
Ryan Dunn [00:23:26]:
So what do we do with the rest of it then? Are these writings about false prophets and stinging locusts? Are these predictions of things which are to come or observances of realities that are, or what are you making of that?
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:23:42]:
Yeah. I mean, the the tool that I introduce is, like, it takes some reframing and and rearranging of some mental furniture if you've been taught that revelation is really a blueprint for the end of the world. I don't read revelation that way anymore. I don't read it as a prediction that we need to somehow unlock and and compare all of these strange numbers and notes. Some of those numbers are really easy to interpret. The number 7, for example, which means God's wholeness and complete, hemming in of everything that is. 7 days to creation and, and, and all of the like. But some of the numbers are confusing, and they remain confusing.
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:24:28]:
And scholars conjecture and guess, but they're conjectures and guesses. So, so what I do with all of the stuff in the middle is really connect it back to the context in which it came, which is speaking about the unbelievable violence of the Roman Empire and wondering about God's presence in the midst of unbelievable violence of empires of today. And again, then that begs the question of which side of the coin are we on? Revelation draws a line that Christians are to be, subversion and challenge to that empirical might and stand apart from it, and that God tends Christians in the midst of that. But at times in our history, Christians have been empire. And are we standing in that moment or are we standing amidst those who are being trampled by its feet?
Ryan Dunn [00:25:26]:
How has this new or evolved understanding of revelation impacted how you live out your your faith in today's context?
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:25:44]:
Yeah. Yeah. That's a great question. Well, hold on. Maybe we pause here, and you can reaffirm the question. But how honest do you want me to be, Ryan? I mean, we're Yeah. So selective.
Ryan Dunn [00:25:58]:
I don't
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:25:59]:
wanna get you in places you don't wanna go. But, Yeah. I mean, what I might say is that we are called in this moment to speak on behalf of those who are on the margins and to recognize if we are if we have power and where we have power and to use that power for the sake of our neighbors. Something like that. Does that feel fair enough? Yeah. Maybe even mentioning the election context, whichever side of the coin you might be on. I don't know.
Ryan Dunn [00:26:37]:
Yeah. No. You can go there.
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:26:39]:
Alright. That sounds good. Maybe just set the question one more time.
Ryan Dunn [00:26:43]:
Yes. Sorry. Random order. All right, here we go. So as you've come to this new understanding or adopted this new understanding of revelation, how has that impacted the way that you live out your faith in our modern context or in your community around you?
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:27:19]:
I think that's really important question for us to ask today. I mean, you and I are recording this a few days after the 2024 election. Mhmm. And, we've been through a season of campaigning that has become, vile in a lot of ways. And we're living in the impending fear of what, will come. At least I should say I'm living in an impending fear of what will come. And I sit in a place that has significant privilege. I sit in a place that I'm not fearful of being rounded up and sent out of this country.
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:28:03]:
But I think the invitation is to think about the people who are impacted by that. Revelation speaks to a people who are in the midst of that deeply fearful moment, and it gives them hope and shows them what happens to empires, but it also gives an indictment and a challenge to those who might stand on the side of empire. And I think for Christians today, it's really that question. Which side are we on and might we side with those who are marginalized and those who are under the wheels of injustice? And might we, like Dietrich Bonhoeffer said, drive a spoke into the wheel itself instead of just bandaging those who are wounded by it.
Ryan Dunn [00:29:00]:
So how does the reading of this book and by by the book, I mean, revelation supply you with hope for the context in which we're in, where, you know, just recognizing the reality that we are polarized. People are a little uneasy around each other. A significant portion of our population is fearful of what is to come. How how are we reading hope
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:29:27]:
out of that? Yeah. Yeah. There is this flow in Revelation. It actually functions in cycles. So each time it dives into this kind of painful vision of, of violence and terror and fear, it then moves back up into a chorus of music and song and worship. I think that there is something beautiful about that, that there are very few places where we bump elbows with people who think differently. There are very few places in our world where we can sit next to one another and share a cup of coffee or a meal or a song or a prayer or hearing a sermon. And I know many of our churches are not those places anymore.
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:30:27]:
Some of them are. I serve a church that is one of those places where people who voted for different candidates might sing together on Sunday morning. And that gives me an incredible amount of hope. And I think that worship is a piece that rewires us. And so I think the invitation of revelation is to take worship seriously. It's to take worship so seriously that we expect that there will be transformation that happens on Sunday mornings or Wednesday nights or Sunday evenings. To take it so seriously that we expect that the spirit will move amongst us. That we expect that there will be transformation out of our congregations and into the community and into the political sphere, but that that's where it happens.
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:31:20]:
Revelation is a songbook for our church. Even if you've never read a page of it, you've sung a hymn that draws from Revelation, and it continues to be the imagination of our worship spaces. So how might we take worship so seriously that it might actually transform our communities?
Ryan Dunn [00:31:43]:
Now I wanna note that revelation ends with the image of it ends with a lot of images, but amongst that is, is the tree, right? And reminiscent of, of the trees in the beginning, that we see in Genesis. And here in this podcast, we began in talking about song we're ending in talking about song. So, and it maybe with that, I don't know, there's this sick, there's this cyclical underpinning that suggests that just as things were, set out with purpose in righteousness and justice in the beginning. So to it, it may be in the end, and which isn't actually the end. And can you speak to us a little bit? Because we keep talking about revelation as being like the closing off point or, you know, even well, the name of your book is the end is the beginning. So how is this what we mark as the end so often the end times, how is it the beginning?
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:32:48]:
And again, this is rearranging the furniture in our brains a bit. But if you start to put aside that notion that it's a blueprint for the end of the world, it actually gives, some real promise to God sustaining and being present in times of deep uncertainty and violence and war and famine and, and oppression. And also the promise that God is tilling the soil. That God is tending the garden. That God's, promises for fruit that will fall from this this tree of life that will feed everyone. And leaves for the healing of the nations. So, so revelation, again, stepping back and looking at the big picture the big picture can actually invite us to lean more deeply into the communities, to to wonder more profoundly about our impact, as fellow humans and neighbors, to wonder how the gospel then propels us into, into work alongside of the marginalized. And again, reading this book at the end of scripture might actually begin a new relationship with, our faith, with with the Bible, with this living voice of God that's speaking afresh, and anew, in our in our communities and in our world.
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:34:12]:
So I hope that if you've read Revelation, you've gotten all sorts of tools of going back and reading other corners of scripture. That maybe it might ignite in people, a way of looking at this ancient book that speaks anew in our own lives. That calls us to witness and to acts of of justice and kindness. And to wonder, you know, what does the Lord require of me? But to do justice, and love kindness, and walk humbly with God.
Ryan Dunn [00:34:42]:
Well put. Well, we're drawing to the end of our podcast time together. I hope it's a a new beginning, a revelation for somebody to, to begin to explore more for, people who maybe wanna follow-up on what you're doing or what you're up to? Where is a convenient spot for them to do so?
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:35:06]:
Yeah. The easiest, place is to, to go to churchanew.org. I'm the director of a movement of congregations and and and leaders. And so there's lots of great resources on that website, and you can find more information there. My book is available wherever books are found. The title, The End is the Beginning, Revelation, Hope, and the Love that Lit the Stars. And I hope that it's helpful. Request it at your local library.
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:35:35]:
Buy it from your local bookseller. Or all of the online retailers have it as well.
Ryan Dunn [00:35:40]:
Cool. Fantastic. Well, Matthew, thank you so much for joining us.
Matthew Ian Fleming [00:35:44]:
Thank you, Ryan. I really appreciate
Ryan Dunn [00:35:46]:
the time. Thanks for joining us. Did this episode insight a longing for more theological exploration or cultural observances? Of course it did. And you're gonna wanna check out another episode of Compass. If you were into this one, then you've got to check out episode number 135 with Derek Kubelis. It's about hell and purgatory and wicked things like that. Actually, it's really mostly about God's love, but we dove deep into a theology of hell in that episode. And I feel like episode 129 with Lenny Duncan would be a good companion to this particular episode too.
Ryan Dunn [00:36:21]:
And that episode, we talked about hip hop from a spiritual perspective, but a number of the themes shared some resonance with what we talked about in this episode. While you're listening, leave a rating and or review. The Compass podcast is brought to you by United Methodist Communications. You can check out all of our episodes, get show notes and relevant links at umc.org /compass. And that is all for this week. We're taking a bit of time off since our next episode will be due to drop on Christmas day, which I gotta admit is not a great day to be releasing episodes. So we'll be back a fresh and new with something new on January 8, 2025. Peace to you until then.
