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lenny duncan takes us through a spiritual journey in hip-hop on Compass. Engage in conversations about systemic change and personal faith.
If you want to hear some cultural commentary from a spiritual perspective, if you want to explore how hip-hop music speaks to both our human experience and our longing for spiritual connection, and if you want to learn a bit about the church of the future, stay tuned for this conversation with lenny.
Episode Notes:
lenny duncan is a writer, speaker, scholar, and media producer working at the forefront of racial justice in America. lenny is the author of Psalms of My People, Dear Church, and Dear Revolutionaries, and co-creator of the podcast BlackBerryJams with PRX. A PhD student in Historical and Cultural Studies of Religion. lenny is originally from West Philadelphia, has hitchhiked thousands of miles on American byways, and makes home up and down the I-5 to see found family, and in the E bay for research.
In this episode:
(00:00) "Book explores hip hop's spiritual authenticity."
(06:25) Amid conflict, empathize with those you oppose.
(12:20) Jimmy Hendrix, hip hop, music, family, church.
(13:08) Early exposure to Nation of Islam, gang culture.
(17:52) Early hip hop parties provided community for kids.
(21:09) Understanding hip-hop as a nerdy experience.
(27:30) The struggle of artists in hustle culture.
(30:40) Reflection on societal gaze and impact on art.
(33:31) Considering the legacy of humanity through music.
(37:55) Women and queer artists leading innovative hip-hop.
(40:50) Interpretation of Jesus creates ontological problem.
(43:20) Share songs for spiritual playlist in community.
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This episode posted on March 6, 2024
Episode Transcript:
Ryan Dunn [00:00:02]:
Hi there. This is the Compass podcast, finding spirituality in the everyday. It's a podcast for finding the spiritual undertones of contemporary life. So let's find God's movement in your life right now. I'm your host, Ryan Dunn. And today, we're bringing you a fun conversation that promises to challenge a little little bit, inspire, and hopefully empower you as well. In this episode, I had a chat with Lenny Duncan, a voice of resilience and a beacon for change. Lenny shares their unique journey discussing the intersection of art, music, in this case, hip hop, and spirituality.
Ryan Dunn [00:00:36]:
Their book Psalms of My People talks about the authenticity of hip hop and its relationship with the divine. So if you wanna hear some cultural commentary from a spiritual perspective, if you wanna explore how hip hop music speaks to both our human experience and our longing for spiritual connection, and if you wanna learn a bit about the church of the future, then stay tuned for this conversation with Lenny. If you appreciate the value our show brings to your day, we'd be incredibly grateful if you would take to leave us a rating and review. Your feedback not only helps us improve what we put on this show, but it also makes a a huge difference in helping more listeners find us. So here's how you can leave a rating and review. On Apple Podcasts, open the Apple Podcasts app on your phone or computer, search for compass, finding spirituality in the everyday, then scroll down to the ratings and reviews section, tap the stars to rate the podcast. And if you have a moment, write a few words about what you enjoy about the show in the review section. On Spotify, launch the Spotify app on your mobile device and then head to our podcast page.
Ryan Dunn [00:01:50]:
Below the podcast title. You'll see a rating section represented by stars tap to rate us. Although Spotify doesn't support written reviews yet, These stars really do count on YouTube, head over to the YouTube channel or app. I'm sorry. And then find our channel compass podcast, finding spirituality in the everyday. After watching an episode, hit that like button to show your support and leave a comment to tell us and other viewers what you thought about the episode. Your comments help increase our visibility on YouTube, and they grow our community. And don't forget to subscribe and click the bell icon so, you know, you never miss out on our content.
Ryan Dunn [00:02:30]:
Okay. Now a little bit about Lenny Duncan. Lenny is a writer, speaker, scholar, and media producer working at the forefront of racial justice in America. Lenny is the author of Psalms of My People, our inspiration for today's chat. Also, Dear Church and Dear Revolutionaries. Lenny's also the co creator of the podcast Blackberry Jams with PRX. They're a PhD student in historical and cultural studies of religion. Lenny is originally from West Philadelphia, born and raised, has hitchhiked thousands of miles on American byways and makes home up and down the I 5 to see found family and in the East Bay for research.
Ryan Dunn [00:03:11]:
So, grab a cup of coffee, tune in, and let's journey together through this spiritual exploration and cultural exploration with Lenny Duncan. It's time to question, learn, perhaps even redefine a little bit about what it means to find spirituality in the everyday. Lenny Duncan, thank you so much for joining us on the Compass podcast. How goes it with your soul today, Lenny?
lenny duncan [00:03:40]:
Oh, it's the day after, bread and circus day. So, you know, the Super Bowl. Oh, yeah.
Ryan Dunn [00:03:45]:
We all
lenny duncan [00:03:46]:
we all we all got in front of, you you know how it is, Malik. So we all had to and this year, Malik was, like, super complicated. Malik was like, I need teenage girls this year. So there was all the Taylor Swift stuff. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Right? And, like, the redemption of the billionaire again. Right? And then, like, Jay z, which, you know, we'll talk about a little bit.
lenny duncan [00:04:08]:
Jay z was like, no. I'm a good billionaire too. Like, it was, like, wild. He's like, but I'm still a edgy one. And, like, it was a weird Super Bowl. And then, like, you know, the that that ad campaign that, like, if you're a Christian or you've ever worked as a faith leader Yeah. There is, like, no way you didn't notice those he gets us.
Ryan Dunn [00:04:33]:
Yeah. Alright. So And, you
lenny duncan [00:04:35]:
know, look. You said follow the money. Right?
Ryan Dunn [00:04:38]:
Yep. I did.
lenny duncan [00:04:39]:
Right? I mean, good organizing is always follow the money. A budget a church's budget is a theological document. Mhmm. Yeah. A theological campaign's budget is a theological document. Mhmm. It reflects what they really believe. Right? And that's okay.
lenny duncan [00:05:00]:
Right? I'm just I'm just encouraging people to do their own research. But one of the things I said about that is, like, some of y'all are hype AF, for the he gets us campaign. Forget you hid, like, straight cowards in the house during the uprising. Just like you ain't fit to do anything as we push back these Christofascist for 9 months but vote, your chance to come out and love on folks like that ain't speculative. You wouldn't have to imagine what you would have done in a war scene or protest scenario if you would have joined us. You would know what your character is made of. You chose not to participate for the last few years. And some of y'all have no idea what it takes to be a peacemaker outside the congregation, and it shows.
lenny duncan [00:05:43]:
I'm just saying. Half those scenes that we saw in that commercial, I say, happen every day. And you ain't gotta imagine them on Super Bowl night. And and this isn't a call out. This is a call in. Right? This is a call in. There's a call like, you don't have to imagine what it's like to go stand in between 2 sets of protesters. I've done it.
lenny duncan [00:06:07]:
And and and and and and and and and you and you may always say like, well, it always seems like you take a sidewalk, Chen, to take the side of the most vulnerable. There was this dude in Nazareth. I'm just copying his style. Right? I'm just copying his style.
Ryan Dunn [00:06:21]:
Theological. Alrighty. Here we go to Jesus. You bring it you
lenny duncan [00:06:25]:
you know what I mean? Like Yeah. And and and and and you don't have to imagine what it's like to stand in the middle of a war right now if you're paying attention to what's happening in Gaza. Right. And no matter what you think theologically, no matter what you think politically, at the end of the day, right now, as you and I are recording this, Rafa is being invaded where the last million people are, where the last of the water is, where the last of the bread is, where where where where where somehow we have forgotten that political parties are not people. And we're willing to turn a blind eye because whether or not I agree with, you know, politics of any particular people in some country where I don't understand what's going on. You know, like so you don't have to imagine these scenes that we saw in the Super Bowl ad. There are opportunities in this world where you can wash the feet of people you don't agree with. It's not hard.
lenny duncan [00:07:23]:
It it's it's it's it it it's scary, and it takes courage. But most people who do courageous things know that fear is a big part of courage. Yeah. Particularly somatic feel fear in your body. Anyway yeah. So that's where my heart's at.
Ryan Dunn [00:07:39]:
Yeah. You
lenny duncan [00:07:40]:
know, I saw that campaign, and then, like, people are, like, follow the money. It's bad. And then other people are, like, but it's saying a good thing.
Ryan Dunn [00:07:48]:
Message.
lenny duncan [00:07:48]:
And I'm like, you guys are missing the point. You don't have to wait for a $7,000,000 Super Bowl ad. That's how much it costs, $7,000,000.
Ryan Dunn [00:07:57]:
Yeah.
lenny duncan [00:07:57]:
You don't have to wait for a $7,000,000 Super Bowl ad to do that. What you are all we have to do is the same thing that, like, has been doing since the fifties, man. Pick up the local newspaper on one hand, pick up the vital on the other, pray over the headlines, and show up some places. It really ain't hard, man.
Ryan Dunn [00:08:13]:
Yeah.
lenny duncan [00:08:14]:
People act like it's rocket science out here anymore, and it's not it's not you it's a really simple game. We we we we it is. As a faith leader, it's a simple gig. It's a simple gig. Is it hard on the soul and the body and and the mind that we need to support our faith leaders? Of course. That's on the table. But at the end of the day, like, it's not that hard. You could be doing those things you saw in that commercial.
lenny duncan [00:08:38]:
You could be living those scenes. Now whether or not your church council or board likes that, that's a whole other story, homie. You know, like, what, you know, like, whether people in your community or your congregation are with that. And part of that is, like because I know we scapegoat congregations. Like, you know, if you there's a black Luther leader who who always shared this with me. He always said, Vlad, if if if you if if if you're leading and no one's following, you're just out for a walk. Well, you can't scapegoat the people if you don't bring them along. But I don't have to tell you about that here.
lenny duncan [00:09:12]:
Let's see.
Ryan Dunn [00:09:15]:
There he comes. I know we're getting into
lenny duncan [00:09:18]:
good to see you, Ryan. Back with me. But that's where my heart's at, man. Thanks for having me on. Yes.
Ryan Dunn [00:09:25]:
You bet. Hey. You had a little rhythm, little bounce in, some of your response there.
lenny duncan [00:09:32]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Ryan Dunn [00:09:33]:
Yeah. There was, some poetic reading. Yeah. And again, a little rhythm to what you're saying. We're gonna get into, to talking about music and particularly hip hop, and that's what's kinda called us to this space today. And it well, you've written this book, Psalms of My People. It's kinda based in in hip hop language, inspired by each chapter. It's kind of inspired by some lyrics, how they've, bring in some brought some meaning to, to your perspective.
Ryan Dunn [00:10:06]:
There are those of us who grew up in a kind of culture where it was suggested that secular music was was a distraction. Right? I mean, it it distracted us from the important things in in a lot of religious culture. They would say, well, you know, secular music's taking you away from God, Lenny. So how has hip hop kind of inspired your sense of connectedness in spirituality?
lenny duncan [00:10:34]:
Yeah. Like, you know, music in general, I think we know for a fact is a huge part of the human experience. If you've ever done visitation with someone, like, let's say, you know, as a pastor, I would visit you know, we we hear we often hear these stories of, you know, older congregants who respond to hymns. Right? They they they may not know a lot of what's going on, but if you sing a hymn to them, they start singing the word fat. You know?
Ryan Dunn [00:11:01]:
Yeah.
lenny duncan [00:11:02]:
And and and so we know music has this ability to to kinda reach beyond and help us communicate. It's it's really helpful for people who struggle to communicate. You know, my father, for all his flaws, in a lot of ways, you know, one of the things that he had, was music. Right? And music was a way that, like, like, my father would not be able to, like, be able to talk to me about black liberation. And there were a lot of reasons why. Right? He was systemically oppressed from having education. He got to the 11th grade before people realized he couldn't read. He was dyslexic and blind in one eye.
lenny duncan [00:11:46]:
Now that I am close to an autism or a neurodiversity, diagnosis, a lot of his actions make a lot of sense. Right? Mhmm. So, like, there's a lot of merciful there's a lot of reasons to have mercy for my father. Right? But he couldn't communicate stuff like that. So, like, instead of, like he couldn't be like, yo. This is black liberation, and let me break down to you the best ways that I think that our people have a chance going forward, but he would be like, this is Gil Scott Hair, and you should listen to him. He would say, these are the lost poets. These are the stylistics.
lenny duncan [00:12:20]:
This is Jimmy Hendrix. Right? And, and I remember for me when hip hop so music was always a huge part of our household, a huge part of our lives, a way we communicate to each other as family. You know? And I grew up in a family that, like, we were the only, like, we were the only nuclear family that didn't go to church on Sunday. Right? Everybody else is very connected to the black church. And and just my my dad didn't believe in that stuff. My dad was like my dad was he wasn't a stone cold atheist. Right? But he but he was suspicious of church folk, and he was suspicious of he was suspicious of the God they like to talk about because, you know, his experiences were different. You know? He grew up going to the Panther breakfast program.
lenny duncan [00:13:08]:
He met the he was exposed to the nation of Islam very early on. He remembers the early gang culture of the moon gang, and other things. He saw move and it's and and and and and and and their rise and fall in Philadelphia. You know? And so he had seen people, you know, and he had seen the black church organize at Philadelphia since he was a kid through his, you know, through his mother and his father, you know, my grandparents and, you know, aunts and uncles and, you know, cousins and became preachers. And, you know, and and my cousin now, Nicole Duncan Smith, who's a ABC preacher. And, like, like like, all that stuff was there, but my dad was mighty suspicious of it. Mhmm. Mighty suspicious of anyone who had any answer, that they had a book.
lenny duncan [00:13:55]:
And and, yeah, he couldn't read, so that's part of it. But he was suspicious of people how they thought because they wrote their shit down that, like, that, like, that meant something to him. Right? Like, basically like, because he would always talk about it. He was like he was like, I don't trust Christians because the only proof they think is their own book. Yeah. He's like he's he's like very strange to me. Right? Like, you know, he was suspicious of that stuff. But music Well, a lot of people
Ryan Dunn [00:14:22]:
would gel with that today too. Right? I mean, this is what we hear about this this the nuns, the n o n e s's, who are, you know, actually, probably not altogether unbelieving in a spiritual sense. But, you know, when you talk about suspicion, and that's that's where it's coming from. Yeah.
lenny duncan [00:14:39]:
No. Early, like, my dad was, like, the last generation of gen x. I mean, our 1st generation of gen x, and I was born 78. He was born, like, I think he was born, like, 56, so he's, like, late boomer, but not really boomer. So he missed the sixties. You know what I mean? Yeah. He's, like, early gen x. It depends on how you count it.
lenny duncan [00:14:58]:
And I'm, like, 78 real late. You know what I mean? And and my perspective, you know, I'm, like, firmly in that last year of Gen x. And and, you know, from my perspective, like, I I wanted to go to church and stuff. I wanted to learn about, like you know, I I I like that stuff. I read the bible and you know, when I was, like, 6 all the way from cover to cover. And, you know, I was like I had questions. I was like, you know, not well put together. I wish I could talk to their marketer.
lenny duncan [00:15:34]:
I was like, you know and for me, I was like, Peter seems pretty important. Paul seems like he is either 5 personalities or something. But then, like, later on, I went and got a MDiv, and I was like, oh, that's just 5 different authors.
Ryan Dunn [00:15:47]:
He is. Yeah. Right?
lenny duncan [00:15:49]:
Uh-huh. But, like, at that time, I was like, yo. Why is Paul so different? And, you know, and I really like Peter and the stories of the early disciples and all that stuff. But, yeah, man. Like, so music for me was the holy thing we did on Sundays. My dad would wax the car, put on some music, tell us a story, relate it to what's going on in the world. And, hip hop came at a time when, like, my cool dad thought it it was against it. He was like a lot of black folks were.
lenny duncan [00:16:17]:
He was like, that's not real music. Mhmm. First. I get it. Mhmm. So yeah. That's that's why it spoke to me because my dad didn't like that shit.
Ryan Dunn [00:16:27]:
He was like rebellion kinda thing?
lenny duncan [00:16:29]:
Like, he just wanted to break my records. Yeah. Like, that's how it was early hip hop. You would break people would break your record. People would be like, I can't listen to that stuff. That stuff promotes. It promotes death. And you'd be like, these are the only people who are describing what it's like for me to walk to school every morning.
lenny duncan [00:16:47]:
And you and you don't want me to listen? I don't understand. Right? You know, that's how it was. You know, I I think that's why hip hop and punk rock really supported each other in the early days, because they saw a lot of, a lot of camaraderie Yeah. You know, in in the movie.
Ryan Dunn [00:17:09]:
Yeah. It's a sense of telling a story of of people who maybe don't feel like they have
lenny duncan [00:17:14]:
a whole lot of voice. Yeah. And hip hop you know, look. Listen. Hip hop has, like, its own super dope, like, I guess a one way to look at it is that it like, it has its own, like, you know, hermeneutic. It has its own, like, doctrines. I mean, the 5 pillar hip hop, the 5 you know, the the house of hip hop was built with 5 foundational elements. It's like MC ing, which is the oral, DJ ing, which is the oral, like the aura, break dancing, which is the physical graffiti, which is visual, and knowledge, which is mental.
lenny duncan [00:17:52]:
And, like, that was the early hip hop parties that was about community organizing and providing a place, particularly in the Bronx and in other places where there was incredibly dangerous corrupt and white supremacist systemic end stage capitalist conditions, oppressing black people. And this was the way that the kids got together. I mean, the first hip hop party happens on like 15, you know, it happens with Sedgwick Ave, like 15 60 Sedgwick. Like like, that's that's that's my child's That's that's that's that's a project that's a project, a rep room. Like, hip hop's born. Right? So, like, you know, that's that's where it come from. It comes from this place where the kids had nowhere else to go or nowhere else to be. Yeah.
lenny duncan [00:18:41]:
So this is how they start expressing themselves.
Ryan Dunn [00:18:44]:
Was there a first song or album to you that when you heard it, you're like, this is this is my experience. I feel connected to something beyond myself through this.
lenny duncan [00:18:54]:
Yeah. I think, like, the first I mean, the first one that really that I I think that's why I start the book with it even though, like, I was raised on East Coast hip hop, and I loved a lot of it. You know? A Tribe Called Quest, Brand Nubian, Onyx. I was really into Onyx as a kid if you ever listened to Onyx. Throwback. Yeah. Yeah. I was really into, I was really into, this guy named Schooley d from Philadelphia, but that's because my older cousin Perry was into him.
lenny duncan [00:19:29]:
I didn't really understand Schooley d's world. I was too young for that. I didn't understand the effects that the crack error was happening was was having on our on our city. But, like, Schoolly was, if you, you know, iced tea and, like, a recent, a recent documentary Netflix did a few years back, Evolution of Hip Hop. You know, he credits Schoolly D from South Philly as the inventor of gangsta rap. That's the first gangsta rap song. You know? So, like, that stuff was in the atmosphere. I listened to that stuff, Afrika Bambaataa.
lenny duncan [00:20:04]:
And I think Africa Bambaataa, my dad, for some reason, because it was so close to Funkadelic, he bought that album. And so that Africa that first Africa Movata, Planet Rock, we had that. And I think, like, the first one that really got me though that, like, I was like hip hop gets me was NWA, you know, FTP. And and, you know, or, you know, for those of you who are wondering, you know, I'm just gonna say it once, you know, fuck the police. And and and that that song was the first time like, I heard, Straight Out of Compton and, like, you know, it just seemed too gang affiliated. I'm from Philadelphia. We hadn't had gangs since the seventies. That that didn't really pull to me.
lenny duncan [00:20:55]:
Like, we didn't have gang life. We we had some of the same problems, but it wasn't gang life. Right? Okay. Not like that. Yeah. It was something different. And and so that didn't pull to me, but but FTP did. Wow.
lenny duncan [00:21:09]:
Because, like, I understood what that meant. Like, because for me, like, I knew what it meant to see people like doctor Dre and Ice Cube and MC Rand. And even really, to a large extent, you know, to a large extent, pretty much everybody in that whole crew were, like, the nerdy kids. Like, you could tell because if you ever been to a hip hop party, they're the dudes who show up with the speakers, and they're there 2 hours early, and they're hanging balloons, and they put on costumes, and they and they and and and they nervous about who gonna show up, and they made the flyer. Come on. That sounds like theater camp, bro. That sounds like bible camp, bro. That sounds like right? You know what I'm saying? That sounds like youth group, bro.
lenny duncan [00:21:58]:
Right? And so, like, I knew that that that that if these kinda artists and hip hop was really still in that heyday of, like, let's have fun, let's party, let's talk about the positive parts of black culture and black history. But NWA was the first ones to really say, like, but these these there's these other things happening to us Mhmm. That I think really only a public enemy had said up until that point as the stately. And so and so when I saw the nerdy kids, the kids who drag the speakers to the to the roller rink to throw the party every Saturday night talking about fuck the police. I was like, wow. It's bad out there. It's not just me. Yeah.
lenny duncan [00:22:42]:
I'm not the only one getting roughed up on their way to school. I'm not the only one whose heart drops when a police officer goes past them on the way to school. That was not reassuring to me. You know what I'm saying?
Ryan Dunn [00:22:57]:
Yeah.
lenny duncan [00:22:57]:
And so, like, I'm not the only one who who watched you know, because, you know, from my perspective growing up in West Philadelphia on the corner I grew up on, you You know, when I was 7 years old, I watched the Philadelphia police department drop explosives on my neighborhood to kill the move folks. So that was my first experience seeing a mass police action. Right? They firebombed my neighborhood. I don't care how you clean that up, what they had to do, what the situation was. I don't care. I'm I'm done arguing with people about the system of policing. If you don't see that that that how broken it is, that that that it's a system that not only oppresses, the poor, not only oppresses black and brown folks, but also oppresses the officers themselves, in a system that continues to churn them out just like it churns out prisoners. And the interesting thing is that these guys have whole unions because they're exposed to my neighborhood for 8 hours where I grew up.
lenny duncan [00:24:06]:
We they're heroes because they come to my neighborhood for 8 hours. The conditions you people lead black America in and could care less, fam, but they got a union for that. They got a union because they get to come to my neighborhood for 8 hours. Where's my union?
Ryan Dunn [00:24:25]:
So group chat
lenny duncan [00:24:26]:
like you know, that's that's so that was, like, the first one. I was like, wow. Someone gets me, and it felt like something beyond me or more powerful than me was talking about, like, the things that I care about, oppression.
Ryan Dunn [00:24:40]:
Yeah. What about though so, you know, within our faith tradition, we have this, weird dissonance where it's like, well, we're gonna amplify these voices of people who said some really good things. And, you know, in your experience, a group like NWA describes your, your life in a way. Gives you a sense of resonance and connection. Yet throughout history, we also have, some of these people who say these great things also say some things that are are repulsive to us in our own time and age. Right? So Yeah. Yeah. And so how do you look at a group of, like, NWA where, you know, said summed up your condition yet also said some things that that we would look back on today and be like we can do better.
lenny duncan [00:25:30]:
Yeah. Like, I deal with that a lot in the book. And the reason I deal with that a lot in the book is because, like, when I first made the list, it was like a love letter to, like, 12 year old Lenny. And 12 year old Lenny wasn't thinking about, like, the fact that, you know, like, they might have to tell people they don't feel like any gender and that their pronouns are they. And 12 year old when he wasn't thinking about being queer, they just felt queer. And 12 year old when he wasn't thinking about the political ramifications of young black men give being put in positions of power and never being taught consent. Right? Something that white men do in silence every day. Hello.
lenny duncan [00:26:06]:
And and, like, but all these things. Right? All these things. And and and and I wanted to change the list, to be honest with you. I wanted to change the songs. I wanted to change the artist. But then I thought about queer seminarians and transseminarians, and how they often have to deal with doctrine, literature, and sacred scripture that if that that I don't believe is meant to be weaponized against them, but is. And yet they still deal with those materials quite frankly. Your church right now is standing up for queer and trans people in an unprecedented way, unprecedented way.
lenny duncan [00:26:49]:
And I know a lot of the chuff around what you know, a lot of what the outsiders are saying is is is is property and whatever the hell is going on with you guys with that stuff. But at the end of the day, you're taking a stand for queer and trans people and in this scene. And it is important in this time. And so, yeah, it's hard to deal with those materials. You know, I talk about that in the in the chapter, with Kanye. You know? Yeah. You know, I get right into it. Like, this dude had people screaming the name Jesus Christ at the club at 3 AM.
lenny duncan [00:27:30]:
Bro, what happened? Right? And and I talk about that because we want so much out of these hip hop stars. We want so much out of these artists. And and and I think one of the things that I really try and deal with in this book is that because of our hustle culture, because of our social media culture, because of our constant access to artists, we we we've really lost the ability to separate art from artists, which doesn't mean you let artists get away with anything they want. Right? But but but but but but one of the things that, you know, I and and, you know, I'll read a little bit of it, actually. Because I talked about it with Kanye, I think, very specifically in a way that, you know, it's it's it's it's hard to explain to someone what it's like being a black artist in this country and what it feels like when you finally make it. Right? And and, you know, so the chapter's called the tragedy of Saint Kanye. And, you know, the quote I go is we have war, we have war, terrorism, racism, but most of all, we have war for ourselves. Kanye West, Jesus walked.
lenny duncan [00:28:48]:
Mhmm. I know what you want here. I know what he deserves. I don't do postmortems in front of a live studio audience. That's why I quit the church. I could feel the bloodlust rise in some of you as you read even this line and slowly realize that it will not be this story, this book, this newer testament. You want me to pause in this chapter to rip that f and sell out the shred? Psalms, scripture, music, literature, humanity is full of stories of tragedy, and this story about who we are based off sounds that filled our worlds, Kanye will be Ophelia, out in a limb, and we will divest from the divisive war that white supremacy has left us in. Kanye West is what happens to the black artists under the white gaze.
lenny duncan [00:29:32]:
He's been hollowed out. Kanye has left the building in the same way Legion has left the building. I mean, we watched this dude go to the pearly gates and we taped it. And that's one of the lines I say. I said, Kanye fell from the pearly gates and we taped it, white men do this in silence every day. And it's hard because as a Black artist, it feels like the world is looking at you. But I know from as a as a as a as a budding black historian and scholar, you know, that really, culturally, black people have always seen each other. My mom has always seen me.
lenny duncan [00:30:12]:
She always knew I was a poet. My mom my daddy always knew I was gonna be around, and my grandmother knew I would do great things out in the world. My cousin knew that I would be behind COVID someday. Shout out to Nicole. They knew these things when I was young. And what happened was the world gave me those things, but what we mostly mean is white power structures and money started to give me those things or access to those. Mhmm. Yeah.
lenny duncan [00:30:40]:
And how do we wrestle with that? How do we wrestle with with with with what the white gaze or what the public gaze in general does, not not even just to the black artists, not even just to the white artists, to our preacher, to our leader, to our politicians. This, this, this we have a preserve a perverse observer effect upon each other now, that that I think as we grow, and we will grow with these tools, social media will not destroy the world the same way that the telegraph didn't relax. Chanced, we will grow with these tools. We're just you know, we're in our in we're in our toddler stage with this stuff. But, you know, we so so yes. Jesus Walks was an incredible song that was incredibly important, and I will never spin it again live because homie gets paid for it, but I'm not gonna deny the fact that at the time there were a lot of people who grew up in the church, there were a lot of people who went to HBCUs, There were a lot of people who worked at your seminary. There were a lot of people who work in your denominational offices. There are a lot of people who work in your communities who like hip hop and still want to say the word Jesus Christ at 3 in the morning in the club.
lenny duncan [00:31:54]:
Yeah. And, you know, how do you wrestle with that? What does that mean? You know what I mean? And I and who's more faithful in that moment? You know what I'm saying? The one who the you know, I there's certainly scripture that says anyone, anyone who gets people to say my name, to call out my name. Right? And and what's more authentic praise at 3 in the morning? What's the braver place to say, like, to scream out the name of Jeevah? Like, inside a safe congregation or being that one girl who gets on the floor every time that song came on and be like, no. It's my song.
Ryan Dunn [00:32:28]:
This is it. Yeah.
lenny duncan [00:32:29]:
Right? Yep. And have a little praise moment and then go home with a friend.
Ryan Dunn [00:32:33]:
I don't know. You talked about this being kind of like a love letter to your 12 year old self.
lenny duncan [00:32:38]:
Yeah.
Ryan Dunn [00:32:38]:
What inspired you to write that down that you're mid forties?
lenny duncan [00:32:43]:
Well, you know, I'm at the Graduate Theological Union, and, most of my studies are, like, more in the esoteric now, or, yeah, esotericism. So, I'm in, I'm in the historical and cultural studies of religion department there. And in particular, my my my particular little group or department is the new religious movements or, you know, anything after 15 50. Some a lot of anti terrorism, a lot of weird stuff. And one of the questions that historians are asking themselves right now, the the ugly boy behind this, is is one of the
Ryan Dunn [00:33:29]:
questions come back to something heavy. Don't worry about it.
lenny duncan [00:33:31]:
Alright. Cool. Cool. Well, like like one of the questions they're asking themselves, if this be the last general Or in the last couple of generations of the human I made. What sort of record do you leave behind? Do you leave a record talking of our accomplishments? Do you leave a record warning of what not to do? What language would you write it in? How would you communicate it to people? How would you put it in some sort of container vessel device that it would never be lost even if we bomb ourselves to the stony? How would you tell people who we were? And I I've been really wrestling with this question And music, I think somehow, I think music is something that every culture is done that we know of in humanity, and it might be something that we share in common with others who might come first. So that's really what got me thinking about that. And then I was like when I was thinking about that deep everything, I was like, yo, what would money put in that time capsule? So it keeps doing great. Like, what song do you feel like? Yo.
lenny duncan [00:34:43]:
This was my experience. This is what it felt like to be me. And then I tried to wrestle with that stuff as an artist. I'm still trying to take the leap of the box. You know? I was really influenced by Be Here Now. A lot of zines are written on. You can, like, temporal time zones, like, hey. Hey.
lenny duncan [00:35:07]:
Like, you know, like, really influenced by stuff I saw, like, other people in the nineties who were trying to figure out something beyond the church. I wanted to create something that kinda wrapped all that up. Black esotericism, black spirituality, black occultism, whatever you wanna call it, for all black peoples of the Americas, has always happened in the setting of the church. It's always been in the church, around the church because there's one of the few places free people can gather. And so, to to separate the 2 would would to do would would be to do violence to it. And I think even when you're talking about a generation that was probably the, like, the the least church generation at that time of black people in America, There are these outlines of of of biblical, scriptural, and theological language they're using to frame the worlds that they're in and they're doing it through hip hop.
Ryan Dunn [00:36:09]:
Man, that's so theological. Maybe we should end with that. We're not gonna. You talked about dropping, dropping something to remember into the time capsule. We're we're both, kinda late gen xers come from the same generations, grew up in the in the generation of the mixtape. So if you're dropping that mixtape into into the time capsule, obviously, you made mention of, what would be on that beginning mixtape beginning of the mixtape through and sounds of of my people. Are there, are there more songs that you would add to the list?
lenny duncan [00:36:45]:
Yeah.
Ryan Dunn [00:36:46]:
What's on the b side of the mixtape?
lenny duncan [00:36:48]:
I would say Lockdown by Anderson Paak. If you're looking for, like, what happened in 2020. Also, the Judas and the Black Messiah, Fred Hampton Junior, his his his son is on the soundtrack inspired from it.
Ryan Dunn [00:37:05]:
Okay.
lenny duncan [00:37:06]:
And one of one of Pop Smoke's last song is on there, like, it's it's it's a hot album. But but I would say I would say just because I've heard Chairman Fred speak since I was a kid, right, in different places. And and and I didn't get it at first. Right? Because, like, my dad would also take me to see parliament Funkadelic. I was like, you know, to me, it was just dudes yelling about blackness on stage. When you're young, you don't know how to, like, transmute this stuff. I could tell chairman Fred was someone important and something different, but, you know, couldn't really so, yeah, I would say, like, some of that stuff that's been happening is really important. I would also say, everything Janelle Monae's doing with body and pleasure and r and b and hip hop right now, Please don't sleep on that.
lenny duncan [00:37:55]:
Do not sleep on Tank and the Bangers. I think I think women right now or femmes or queer, femme are doing the most innovative stuff in hip hop right now, which is, you know, that's that's really where all the new, like, underground stuff is coming from that that feels, very holistic. I would also probably throw, like, a roots song in there because I'm from Philadelphia, and that's just, like, my job. So, you know Thank you. You know, I would say I would say if you're looking for what I I a lot of people get mad at me, but I'd say the best the best 8 bars out of Philadelphia is the first 8 bars of Dear God 2.0, by the roots. And and, like, like, he says stuff like, he says stuff like, because because, like, there's, like, this really, like, eerie dude singing and he's like, dear god, I'm trying so hard to reach you. They say I could see your face in all I do. Mhmm.
lenny duncan [00:39:06]:
But sometimes it's so hard to believe in you. And then, like, he and then Black Thought comes in. He's just like, uh-huh. They said they said he's busy. Hold the line, please. Call me crazy. I thought that maybe he could mind read. Who does the blind see? Like, he just goes in, and he's just like you know, if if he's like, if everything is made in China, are we Chinese? I mean, there's this one line where he's like he's like, he's like he's like, he's like, he's like technology turning everybody into zombies, acid rain, hurricanes, tsunamis.
lenny duncan [00:39:43]:
I mean, it it's just it's it's one of these epic, like like, questions. Like like like, okay, god. If you're out there, then, like, who who are you? Right? And it's it's this real wondering, This real deep theological wondering of what does it mean if you're not a theologian, a pastor, someone who's gonna dedicate their lives to understanding what this is. What does god mean to you? And and and and what does it mean towards the end of your life? Right? Like and so it's it's it's it's it's a super duper plan.
Ryan Dunn [00:40:14]:
Yeah. It it's like a invitation to a practical theology. You know? Forget all the Absolutely. All the deep systematic stuff that you need to have, like, these long degrees to be able to understand. Like, the practical theology is, like, yeah, who is God in my experience?
lenny duncan [00:40:31]:
We're gonna have to ask these questions right now because if I say the name to someone on the corner, I wanna talk to you about Jesus Christ of Nazareth. It might mean something to a trans kid in Florida. Mhmm. Then it means to a black elder in Mississippi
Ryan Dunn [00:40:50]:
Yeah.
lenny duncan [00:40:50]:
Then it means to a guy in Idaho who's, like, in the state senate than it might mean to someone in California. And this is the problem. We have an ontology problem. They have they have taken our Jesus and broken him and made him into many others. And this will be the great wrestling, if if you claim to be someone who follows the Nazareth, the one you know, the carpenter, you you claim to be one that follows that one, well, you're gonna have a hard time explaining who that person is to people. Yeah. Because it means so much now that it used to not mean. And and and how do you overcome it? Filling the filling kid children with fear.
lenny duncan [00:41:37]:
This is this is the great challenge of our time, which I don't think is insurmountable, but it's it's one we have to take, head on. And that's why we need art that reminds people that profits are still out there. That's why I wrote this book. Like like like, people are still saying holy things that may not come in the vessels you're used to or in the delivery methods you're used to, but people are still questioning, wondering, wrestling, reaching out for, and hoping for God.
Ryan Dunn [00:42:04]:
Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah. That's what makes art so important in in this age, especially when, we can get so individualized and personalized. You know, I can tailor everything to to my own whims and what have you.
lenny duncan [00:42:20]:
It's the tendency to for you if you don't Yeah.
Ryan Dunn [00:42:22]:
That's right. I mean, it's all catered to me, and we could do that with God as well. And I mean, we have been for centuries. Right? Shaping God into our own image. And art art connects us to that. I think that bigger picture. And, you know, even from a perspective of coming from my background and reading a book like like songs for of my people. I mean, this is an eye opening experience.
lenny duncan [00:42:45]:
You used the footnotes?
Ryan Dunn [00:42:47]:
Fullscape of God.
lenny duncan [00:42:48]:
Here's the footnotes. You did? Yeah. I had
Ryan Dunn [00:42:50]:
to go pretty pretty quickly so I didn't get to invest in every bit of research so I've got a list ahead of me in terms of going back and like, alright.
lenny duncan [00:42:59]:
Yeah. The footnotes are
Ryan Dunn [00:43:00]:
Going back through all these songs now. Oh, yeah.
lenny duncan [00:43:02]:
I tried. Yeah. They're like really, they were like little notes I made for the I made for the copy editors and a few others that gave me feedback, and then I was like, alright. That's it. They're all in the footnotes.
Ryan Dunn [00:43:14]:
Yeah.
lenny duncan [00:43:16]:
Well, I appreciate you having me on, man. Seriously.
Ryan Dunn [00:43:20]:
Alright, friend. What song or songs would be on your spiritual playlist? You can share some thoughts in the Rethink Church community, which is a a Facebook group. If this episode was helpful for you, then you might wanna jump into another episode on tying the spiritual to popular media. For that, check out episode 100. It's called 10 things to stream right now for theological reflection. If you're feeling like you're ready to explore more in upsetting the systems that be, then check out episode number 123, nice church, not nice, peaked triarchy. And again, while you're listening, leave a rating and or review. The Compass podcast is brought to you by United Methodist Communications.
Ryan Dunn [00:44:02]:
Again, my name is Ryan Dunn, and I'll be back with another episode in 2 weeks time. Look forward to chatting at you
lenny duncan [00:44:13]:
then. Peace.
