Join us as Dr. Richard Beck discusses mysticism in daily life, and how enchantment can transform our view in "Hunting Magic Eels." Feeling world-weary? Richard discusses how moral beauty & acts of kindness can awaken awe. Explore the mystical in the mundane on the Compass Podcast!
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Episode Notes:
Dr. Richard Beck is a Professor of Psychology at Abilene Christian University, and he is the author of the popular blog Experimental Theology: The Thoughts, Articles and Essays of Richard Beck. His latest book is called “Hunting Magic Eels: Enchanted Faith in a Skeptical Age… it is out now. As an experimental psychologist and a practicing Christian, Richard attempts "to integrate theology with the experimental social sciences."
In this episode:
(00:00) Compass podcast embraces awe and mystery.
(06:15) Enchantment focuses on experiential perspective, openness to surprise.
(07:44) Yearning for enchantment amid shifting religious beliefs.
(12:12) Vocational crisis due to moral questioning.
(14:48) Natural beauty not main trigger for awe.
(18:28) Small local churches offer moral beauty weekly.
(22:38) Biking to work, sunrise, prayerful start.
(24:42) Embracing the little way in daily life.
(30:16) Criticism about depending solely on God's aid.
(33:39) Using poetry to find meaning in life.
(34:58) Seek joy, God's witness, widen divine encounters.
Related episodes
- Discovering evidence of the Divine
- Experiencing God in nature
- Making every moment holy
- Integrating the spiritual and the physical
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Thank you for listening, downloading, and subscribing.
This episode posted on April 3, 2024
Episode Transcript:
Ryan Dunn [00:00:00]:
Welcome back to the compass podcast, where we invest in drawing out the divine moments in our daily lives. This is a stormy edition of compass as I'm recording this portion during a thunderstorm. So if you hear some extra audio, it's because things are a little bit nuts outside right now. Many of us though, we like thunderstorms so long as we can have a safe place to ride them out. Right? They're awe inspiring, which serendipitously is kind of what this episode of Compass is about. That is being inspired by awe and recapturing a view of the world that allows for some mysticism and mystery. In this episode, I talked with doctor Richard Beck about interrupting our skepticism and rediscovering the enchantment in Christian traditions. We'll start with talking about Celtic legends, even some cryptozoology, but then get into addressing the debate that so many of us feel about connecting with something greater.
Ryan Dunn [00:00:59]:
We discussed connecting with younger generations, existential restlessness and embodying moral beauty. It's a deep episode. If you appreciate the value that our show compass brings to your day, we'd be incredibly grateful if you could take a moment to leave us a rating and review. Your feedback not only helps us improve the show, but it also makes a huge difference in helping more listeners like you find us, the Compass Podcast. So here's how you can leave a rating and review. An Apple Podcasts, open the Apple Podcasts app on your phone or computer. Search for compass, finding spirituality in the everyday, and then scroll down to the ratings and reviews section. Tap the stars to rate the podcast.
Ryan Dunn [00:01:45]:
You can hit the 5 star. Go ahead. If you have a moment, write a few words about what you enjoy about the show in the review section. On Spotify, you launch the Spotify app on your mobile device. You head to our podcast page. Below the podcast title, you'll see a rating section represented by stars. So tap to rate us. Although Spotify doesn't support written reviews yet, those stars really do count.
Ryan Dunn [00:02:09]:
And on YouTube, you head over to our YouTube page, find our channel compass podcast, finding spirituality in the everyday. We have our own channel there. After watching an episode, hit the like button to show your support, and then leave a comment to tell us and other viewers what you thought. Your comments help increase our visibility on YouTube, and they grow our community. And, of course, don't forget to subscribe and click the bell icon. So you don't miss when we throw new stuff out there. All right, back to this episode, we're talking with doctor Richard Beck, who is a professor of psychology at Abilene Christian University. He's the author of the popular blog, experimental theology, the thoughts, articles, and essays of Richard Beck.
Ryan Dunn [00:02:51]:
His latest book is called Hunting Magic Eels, Enchanted Faith in a Skeptical Age. That's where the cryptozoology comes from. That book is out right now. As an experimental psychologist and a practicing Christian, Richard attempts to integrate theology with experimental social sciences. Really makes for some interesting stuff. So I had a great time talking with doctor Richard Beck. I think you'll appreciate the conversation too. So let's get to it.
Ryan Dunn [00:03:20]:
Well, we're gonna get into some deep topics, talking about finding meaning in life and, ideas of around faith and enchantment. But I have to ask you first, what happened to the magic eels?
Richard Beck [00:03:32]:
Yeah. So the title of my latest latest book is called Hunting for Magic Eels. And so everybody thinks it's a book about, like, cryptozoology, you know, like, like, chapters drew
Ryan Dunn [00:03:42]:
me in, honestly.
Richard Beck [00:03:43]:
Yeah. Chapters on, like, Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster. And and and so my publisher picked the title, and and I had some reservations about that. I'm like, people are not gonna know what this is. Could you imagine just going through the Christian living section and seeing how Deepgram Magic Eels?
Ryan Dunn [00:03:59]:
It it takes interest, though.
Richard Beck [00:04:00]:
Yeah. Yeah. I was like, and, but the subtitle is recovering in enchanted faith in a skeptical age. But the title came from my wife and I were on Wales. We were on Sanwyn Island, where there was a Celtic saint, Saint Dwinwyn. She's the Saint Valentine's of the Welsh people, and she became the patron saint of lovers because at on her island, there was this water well that had these enchanted eels in it. And the and the the legend was if you threw a token of your of your love into the well and the eels came up and disturbed it, that would be a sign that they would be faithful through life. So this was premarital counseling in the middle ages.
Richard Beck [00:04:39]:
You know? And so all these pilgrimages came to the water well, and she became the patron saint of lovers. And so my wife I tell the story. My wife and I were on the island looking for this well and the magical eels. But but I then quickly pivot to say, you know, we couldn't find the well, but that's not our world anymore. Like, we don't see
Ryan Dunn [00:05:00]:
Yeah.
Richard Beck [00:05:00]:
Premarital counseling for magical eels.
Ryan Dunn [00:05:03]:
And
Richard Beck [00:05:03]:
so what has happened in the modern era where we're seeing the rise of unbelief, increasing disaffiliation from our churches. What has happened over the 500 years when you go from that world, very enchanted, miraculous, supernatural, to our world where faith is little more fragile and hard to come by.
Ryan Dunn [00:05:23]:
Yeah. You know, it's funny you bring up the the cryptozoology. A couple years ago, I started a fascination with, things like cryptozoology and and kind of the tales of lore and spiritual, supernatural, and was listening to a lot of podcasts at the time. I still do, actually. And my wife at the time was like, what is this fascination? What has brought this on? And I couldn't explain it very well except to say that I loved the idea that there was still something unknown about our world. A sense of fascination that, you know, behind the rocks might be something unthought of, something mysterious, and maybe as you would term it, something enchanted. What do you think we're missing when we lose this sense of enchantment with the world?
Richard Beck [00:06:15]:
Yeah. I think the first thing I would just describe for your listeners is just why grab the word enchantment? I know some, especially kind of conservative or traditional Christians, just really don't like that word, don't like me throwing the word magical around. But the reason why I like the word enchantment is it does focus on an experiential perspective. And I think that's helpful because I think a lot of people, like, if you if you talk to people in the pews, pastors, church leaders and said, what's what's going on with this, disaffiliation with the church? And a a lot of us would describe it as a crisis of belief, that that Christianity is asking us to believe in a lot of things, a lot of supernatural things, invisible things, and so we're having this crisis of belief. But I like the word enchantment and that's a sociological term that has been popularized by the philosopher Charles Taylor who wrote a very big book called A Secular Age, Age, and he's the one that kinda put that word on a lot of people's radar screens. But I like enchantment because if we're dealing with a crisis of belief, then we just can't look at a culture and scream at it and say, believe these things that you find unbelievable. But enchantment, to your point, points to our experiences with the world and an openness to be surprised and maybe maybe, think that there is something under the toadstool. Right? With a like a little l for a fairy.
Richard Beck [00:07:44]:
Like, there is something about enchantment that suggests the world might be a little bit more surprising. It can maybe interrupt us in ways kind of that of, a skeptical materialistic view kinda shuts down or closes down. So there is this, I think, longing in us for the world to be magical as as your journey is is is an example of that. And so we are so that's one of the things I'd also say about this is that sometimes we tell the story that that we're just going from belief to unbelief, And and that's true. We are seeing a rise in kind of rates of atheism and and agnosticism, but that's only around 20 to 25 percent of the population. Still, much of the world is very much enchanted. So what another way to think about what's going on is that there is a shifting of enchantments, where people are kind of opting out of a traditional religious monotheistic enchantment for something that is a little bit more imminent. And so we are seeing a rise in like, neo pagan enchantments in our culture as well.
Richard Beck [00:08:48]:
So it's a it's a a mixed and diverse spiritual marketplace right now.
Ryan Dunn [00:08:54]:
Yeah. There was a Pew study that came out just a couple weeks ago that was reflecting on the the spiritual state of the nones, the n o n e s people, who would not identify as being part of any kind of religious tradition. But this study was suggesting that although they may not want to align with some kind of institutional or formalized religious tradition, they'd still very much express belief in a higher power, and so that there's still this need or well, you call it an ache, an ache within us to to connect with something beyond ourselves like that. It's still there within our culture.
Richard Beck [00:09:34]:
Yeah. And some so some people describe this as the myth of disenchantment, that we are not as disenchanted as we think, And then you've asked, most people are supernaturalists. Most people believe they have a soul. They they might believe in reincarnation. They might believe in karma. They might they believe that their loved ones look over and watch over them after they've passed on. And and so, yes. I do think that is pointing to a a what I might call a disenchantment with disenchantment, dissatisfaction with a purely materialistic view of the world that kind of evacuates the world of kind of sacred significance.
Ryan Dunn [00:10:16]:
Yeah. You also brought up how, in the religious world, at least here in the Western Christian church, we're shrinking. I'm part of one of those shrinking denominations. And we hear a lot tossed around in our folds and enclaves and meetings that people just don't have a desire for God anymore. And yet what you're leaning into is that, you know, people still do have this desire for God, that that holy ache. How do you see people expressing a desire for God in our culture?
Richard Beck [00:10:50]:
Yeah. I would say 22 things. I think I think one of the things that has created, a loss of or disaffiliation in, like, mainline contexts is what I describe in this book as the mystical to moral shift. I think I think people now focus on being, good people, loving people, kind, tolerant people, and in many ways, our politics have increasingly become the repository of those, values and that pursuit of goodness. The the trouble though is is that when goodness, and we all have our different visions of goodness. So for my social justice activist students, that's, you know, that that being inclusive, seeking racial, and gender justice. Those those goals become the the the, how I pursue God in the world, seeking those political ends. And then a a next the next question that gets asked in that conversation is deeply destabilizing, and that is, you know, does one need God to be good? I tell a story in the the new paperback version of my book about visiting with a, a ministry major at my school, so planning on going into the church.
Richard Beck [00:12:12]:
But he had a vocational crisis, and it was as simple as this. He said, doctor Beck, you know, some of the most loving people I know, are of my friends are atheists, and and just that simple, you know, existence of loving atheists. And he said, you know, and some of my atheist friends are more loving than many Christians I know. And and that simple moral comparison called his entire vocation into question. Like, in in in his you can you'll see it there. Right? If being good is the goal and church is either not necessary or even getting in the way, then why mess with it? And so I do think that's part of what's going on is I would describe it as the moralization or politicization of faith. So where are we still longing for enchantment then if it's not in morals? I do think, as you've pointed out, the that we are seeing it in what I describe as the ache, where there is a a sense of existential restlessness. Increasingly, we're talking about a crisis of meaning among our young people.
Richard Beck [00:13:20]:
So in many ways, I think the conversation about God kinda begins with that restlessness, with the with our mental health crisis, with the free floating anxiety out there, with the increasing anger of our kinda zero sum fights over politics that that I do think people are dissatisfied, and and they don't know how to name that ache properly perhaps as a longing for transcendence, but but positive psychology has been pointing us towards things like awe and gratitude and and cosmic significance and meaning in life now for, like, 20 years. So I think kind of the front porch back, you know, conversation about enchantment isn't isn't gonna be about politics or morality, seeking justice, or as important as those things are, but maybe beginning the conversation more with, the the unease that we're all feeling in our culture.
Ryan Dunn [00:14:19]:
Okay. You talked about a sense of awe, and I'm wondering how that takes shape in expressing the the need for awe within our culture. Besides looking I'm I'm having trouble, like, imagining that besides just looking at, like, natural happy happy happiness. Right? So, you know, the Grand Canyon certainly inspires a sense of awe. Are there ways that you see that that people are inspiring a spiritual sense of awe?
Richard Beck [00:14:48]:
Mhmm. I guess one of the most surprising findings from the science of awe is that natural beauty is not the leading trigger for awe. Right. Because I think that's where we we go. And I and I do think there's a I do think there's a problem for that about that. Oh, because one of my concerns, and I talk about this in the book, is that when we associate all with natural beauty, a kind of economic privilege starts to sneak in there. Right? People that can get off to the spiritual retreat. People that can get to the mountains or get to the oceans.
Richard Beck [00:15:23]:
You have to have some sort of economic capacity to put yourself in these beautiful spaces. So I'm I am a little bit worried about people who say, you know, where I experienced God is on the ski vacation in Colorado. I I agree. Yeah. But and and I agree. I do too. Or I I experience all when I'm, you know, at that that beach vacation. I agree.
Richard Beck [00:15:46]:
Like, those are amazing things. But, but I do have a worry about, the way that kinda leaves behind people in in situations that are or is less captivating than those of us that can afford these kind of spiritual retreat experiences. So I do think we have to be intentional in recovering awe in the small intimate spaces and the drudgery of everyday life. I love those books from Rabbit Room Press, Every Moment Holy. Your readers might remember those books. Yeah. We
Ryan Dunn [00:16:17]:
had the author on a past episode. Yep.
Richard Beck [00:16:19]:
Yeah. I think that is a good resource for how to recover awe in the sacred in mundane spaces, but it's gotta be a practice. It's gotta be a liturgy that we we do. We can't you won't see that sacred thing if if if we're on our kinda default setting, which for a lot of us is kind of a God evacuated assumption. We we move into the day presuming God isn't present. And and I think we gotta really work on that perceptual shift in ourselves. Anyway, but back the back to the point. In fact, I kinda lost the thread here.
Richard Beck [00:16:53]:
What was the earlier point?
Ryan Dunn [00:16:55]:
Well, really, I I was looking for ways that that we do cultivate that sense of awe besides out of, like, the strange wonderful natural occurrence.
Richard Beck [00:17:03]:
Yeah. And and so I got it now. I remember what I was gonna say. That natural beauty isn't the number one trigger. The number one trigger of awe is, moral beauty. Mhmm. Bearing witness to sacrificial acts of love and kindness. Moral beauty, when psychologists look at it, is more likely to trigger awe.
Richard Beck [00:17:21]:
And so I think putting ourself in places where we can behold moral beauty, is a place where you can cultivate all that doesn't involve, like, going on a beach vacation. And and so the the awe of of loving community, I think, is an important is an important place to put ourselves. And so we can we can look at our neighborhoods, and we can show up at places where good things are being done and
Ryan Dunn [00:17:46]:
bear wit
Richard Beck [00:17:46]:
and and bear witness to those acts of kindness. And psychologists know that if that doing good or being a part of a good activity gives you a feeling of positive affect that is more durable and gives you a longer lasting glow than just binging on a Netflix show. So that's one way we can do it is kinda put ourselves where we are beholding or participating in acts of moral beauty.
Ryan Dunn [00:18:12]:
If one of your students were to come to you asking for, I guess, some recommend this is a weird question, but if they were asking for some recommendations on how they might encounter that kind of moral beauty, where might you recommend they go?
Richard Beck [00:18:28]:
Well, the local church. That might be a a bit of a a shock, but, But one of the things that I kinda talk to my students about joining a small and healthy local church, I think it's one of the best kept secrets on social media right now is how if you just are a member of a small, local, healthy, little church, you will every week bump into moral beauty. And and pastors know this and people that are faithful, followers, of of Christ in churches. I mean, you know you know what's a good example is my wife and I talked about this the other day is, like, the works of Anne Lamont. Anne Lamont is a part of a mainline little church, and she's been journeying with that church, and and and she just tells in her normal day of just walking alongside that church about the beautiful thing she encounters. I mean, she's a great guide on that on that work, from that progressive mainline perspective, and as a member of my own local church, like, I bump into people all the time. There are just amazing things, just little acts of fidelity and care for taking the people in their lives. And and if you're on social media if you're looking at the church through a social media feed, you see none of that.
Richard Beck [00:19:42]:
All you see is the horrible things. And and and there are horrible things, but the the little stories of of the unnamed and unknown people, you'll never see those unless you just show up regularly and spend time, in those spaces. So that might be a really weird recommendation, but I point my my students to find a healthy, intimate community of faith and spend time join a ministry, teach Sunday school, work in the food pantry, you know, drive Like, one of the things I do at my church is I drive the handicap van. You know? So I pick I pick up our neighbors, and I pick them up. And I tell you what, man, I get more fulfillment and more blessed out of that that ministry, than than I could even describe. The other thing I would say to my students is show up, and I also say this for a lot of my friends because I'm in an academic space, a lot of deconstructing academics. You know, we critically pick at everything related to faith.
Ryan Dunn [00:20:45]:
The skeptical mind. You know?
Richard Beck [00:20:46]:
Yeah. Yeah. And and I tell them, I say they ask me about, like, what was really important in your own season of reconstruction of your faith? And I said, worshiping among the poor. If if you show up on with economically marginalized communities and worship in those spaces, those are enchanted spaces. God is real and alive and the spirit is moving. But if you spend your time in critical intellectual spaces, you're always in, like, your cognitive analytical mode. You gotta get in a place where you're around people that take the presence of god as a as a default. And so that was also important to me is spending time with a little mission church in my town, that had kind of a little bit of a charismatic vibe.
Richard Beck [00:21:29]:
Really uncomfortable for me. Mhmm. But but they enchanted my faith in many ways. So those those are some things I would say is, like, show up on the marches of society because god's real there. In privileged spaces, in in wealthy educated spaces, it's pretty disenchanted. But if you move to the margins of your town or global Christianity, you you're gonna be back in a very enchanted space.
Ryan Dunn [00:21:56]:
Yeah. There's this strange dichotomy, that seems to be coming out where we wanna recognize that God is everywhere. And that's part of the enchantment that we feel when we do recognize that, as you noted with the, with every moment in the holy book, I mean, there are liturgies in there for taking out the trash and making morning coffee. It it's the sense that God is everywhere. And yet, we also wanna look for these spaces where we feel like the veil is thin, where God's presence is easily recognizable. So are there certain locations within your own everyday life, where you feel like that veil is thin, where God's presence is easily recognizable for you?
Richard Beck [00:22:38]:
Yeah. I I think one of the blessings for in my life, speaking of natural beauty, but but something that's local, is that I I'm a bike rider. I ride my bike to work, and it is, either providential or lucky, depending on your metaphysics, that my bike ride, is directly into the sunrise every morning. And so, I get to see that going to work every day. Every day, I'm outside looking at the rising sun, and that's always been a thin space for me. That kinda 20 minute watching the sunrise, getting my head clear, thinking about the day of work, thinking about my students and my colleagues, my family. It's a very prayerful time. So to me, that beginning of the day is, like, really, really important for me as well.
Richard Beck [00:23:25]:
Mhmm. But I've also taken care to kinda, like, create thin spaces in my own life. I talk in my book about, taking a cue from liturgical and Catholic traditions where, like, material reminders, use of icons, and statues and prayer beads and things. So my office is my students call it the chapel because it is it is stuffed with, reminders of God, and and they they would like just to be in that space to visit with me or talk with me. So so so that space for me is kind of like an oasis. My the way I've curated my physical surroundings to bring me into kind of a a more intentional, experience of God. So those are 2 things. I mean, other than experiences.
Richard Beck [00:24:22]:
Right? So experiences, I pray before my classes and morning coffee with my wife. I mean, there's lots of different enchantments in my day, that I could name.
Ryan Dunn [00:24:33]:
What's one of your favorite, relics, so to speak? One of your favorite physical representations that you keep in your office.
Richard Beck [00:24:42]:
I have, a, so Therese Le Sue, I wrote another book called Stranger God, and she is a Catholic saint who's known in the Catholic tradition for a spiritual practice she calls the little way. And in in many ways, I had become, like, a practitioner of, the little way in my own life, and I tell that story in a different book about small acts of kindness and care and seeing others in front of you. And so I have in my office this old, statue of her. It's kinda chipped and got patina on it, and that that's, like, one of my favorite things because she becomes for me when I see that statue, it's right across from where I sit in my office, of learning to see the sacred presence of the person, like, standing right in front of me. Because to me, ultimately, that has to be our thin space. The thin space has to be the person standing right in front of me. Mhmm. And and and and fighting for that sacred recognition in the midst of my hurry and my irritation or my my schedule.
Richard Beck [00:25:49]:
So so that would be like, if I had my office was burning down, I'd probably grab that statue first, you know, out of that space.
Ryan Dunn [00:25:59]:
Well, in thinking about young people, this is, gonna flip our model a little bit, where we're talking about what they need and expect in terms of spirituality. But often within the church, we hear leaders expressing a want to connect with young people. So as you sit observing kind of their deepest needs
Richard Beck [00:26:21]:
Mhmm. What are
Ryan Dunn [00:26:22]:
some ways that the church might respond to what they're doing? What what story does the church need to tell in order to be a stronger presence amidst the young people who you work with?
Richard Beck [00:26:32]:
So I I would say a couple things. One is I think a lot of mainline churches have made the mistake of continually unpacking Christianity in in injustice and moral terms. Because the idea is young people care about justice. They're social justice warriors, so we're gonna keep unpacking the gospel, in the idiom of which they're passionate about. My argument is you're you're participating in the in unwittingly the disenchantment of the your younger generation. The social justice move is actually hurting you because, as I said, they will then ask the next question. Well, do I need to show up at your space on a Sunday morning or participate in your community to vote well in this next election, to march in the next protest? And the answer is no. They don't.
Richard Beck [00:27:31]:
Mhmm. So so I would suggest, first of all, to keep Christianity weird. Okay?
Ryan Dunn [00:27:38]:
Love it. Oh, good.
Richard Beck [00:27:40]:
Like like like don't. I I I think pastors in mainline traditions have so unpacked the this worldly political implications of the gospel as they must. I wanna be clear about this. Absolutely clear. As they must. But but but they evacuate Christianity of its weirder, spookier, magical aspects, and, thus, we let our young people go find those enchantments elsewhere. And so they and so they drift into neopagan kinds of things. So they they dabble in with tarot cards, or they start following their horoscopes.
Richard Beck [00:28:17]:
Like, they're looking for enchantment, and we're not giving it to them because we're just every Sunday morning's like, you know, gender justice, sexuality justice, racial justice, justice, justice, justice, justice. They can get that anywhere. They can get that anywhere. So keep Christianity weird is the first thing I would say. And the second thing I would say is lean into the a. Like like, we keep putting justice out front of our of our like, follow Jesus because of the, you know, he's like the social justice warrior par excellence. But the the one thing that we're we're not doing enough for the human people is is is paying attention to their anxiety. Like, lean into the fact that they they are aching for transcendence.
Richard Beck [00:29:00]:
And we're not giving them transcendence. We're giving them activism. And so speak about the their need about a a sacred grounding that grounds their identity, it it it it grounds their mental health. So back to our conversation about things like awe and gratitude and and meaning in life. When I talk about anxiety, like, when I look at my students and say, don't you guys feel, right, really unsettled that when you peer into yourself, there's just this great instability and and and they get quiet. Like like and so I would suggest pastors, push on that ache a little bit to evoke a desire or a thirst or a hunger to fill that void because our young people, I think, are suffering from a lack of transcendence. So those are 2 things. Keep Christianity weird and lean into the ache for transcendence with young people.
Ryan Dunn [00:29:55]:
Yeah. And I think that that leaning into the ache, that's not really a marketing tactic. I think it's a contemplative tactic. It's it's asking people into a space where they're reflecting on what it is that they really need within their lives, which I I think is important to note because otherwise it may seem manipulative.
Richard Beck [00:30:16]:
Yeah. That's true. And I and I and I get that criticism, and I get that sometimes because people are concerned. Like, are are is god then just become a Band Aid for my my needs and my mental health kinds of things? And and and so I I agree that we shouldn't get out there and use evoke that to get a response or whatever. But I would just go back to something Augustine said. Right? Our hearts are restless, until they rest in god, and and that is not a that is an ancient observation. I've had some people suggest, like, is this a modern thing? Like, no. Our hearts have been rest If without God, just from an ontological perspective, we are finite creatures standing over an abyss of nothingness, and and without some sort sort of sacred dependency, we kinda sense that about ourselves.
Richard Beck [00:31:05]:
And so our ontological instability, right, our lack of grounding, in the real means we are left to kinda conjure up for ourselves, our own existence, but we can't do that very well because because of our finitude, and our fragility. So I do think we're calling people to arrest, that that is elusive now.
Ryan Dunn [00:31:30]:
Well, for our friend who's listening, who is in that place of deconstruction and
Richard Beck [00:31:34]:
Mhmm.
Ryan Dunn [00:31:35]:
Maybe caught in this space as you were talking about where it's, in the intellectual and skeptical loop. What might be just a first step to encounter a sense of awe, to to interrupt or disrupt that loop of skepticism and intellectualism.
Richard Beck [00:31:53]:
Yeah. Well, I mean, in the book, I I I go through what I call enchanted Christianities. I I look at liturgical, contemplative resources, like you've mentioned, like practicing the presence of God, the liturgies of every moment holy. I talked about charismatic enchantments. That that that was the most triggering chapter for some of my friends. Mhmm. But but one of the one of the resources in charismatic traditions is, an emphasis on affectivity, allowing our hearts to be recaptured and and focused on. And the other thing that I think is important from charismatic traditions is their focus on testimony, or storytelling.
Richard Beck [00:32:38]:
I've had churches that that are trying to practice some of the ideas in the book. And and one of the most powerful things that pastors have said is that when I got a small group together and I and I tell them to tell their stories of enchantment, like, when did you feel the presence of god? Like, what was your conversion story? And a lot of those for us, you know, those are decades in the rear view mirror. Mhmm. But it was but it was healing and helpful for them to just remind themselves of of when that felt real to them. And and it was helpful for them to hear the stories of other people to kinda bring god back into, a view again. So the power of sharing our stories of enchantment because in many ways, I think enchantment is a discipline of memory in many ways. And then lastly, I turned to Celtic enchantments, Resources like natural beauty, but poetry. The Celtic Christians felt that the poets were the ones that communicated, the holy the the the insights of the holy spirit.
Richard Beck [00:33:39]:
So for some of us, we lean into poetry as a way to kinda recover us, kind of a sacramental vision of of the world. So I've had students of mine write poetry to to to fight against the default materialism, of their day because that's the one thing poetry teaches you is to read a mundane moment as meaningful, as as stuffed with meaning. Even if it's just sitting on a bench waiting for a subway train, that through the eyes of poetry, that moment can become holy ground, the gateway of heaven. So that might not be a normal tool, but I would suggest, like, getting people in your churches to read or write poetry. But lastly, the thing I would say, taking a cue from, a moment in the book of Acts where Paul is asked in the book of Acts to to share one of the very first sermons with a pagan audience. And and they don't know the stories of ancient Israel, and so he speaks for the first time about how to bring God into a view, amongst a group of people that have never laid eyes on this God in their own minds. They don't think so. And he says, you know, I we come to proclaim the god who made the heavens and the earth.
Richard Beck [00:34:58]:
So he points to he points to natural beauty, but what I talk about in the book is at the very end, he says, the the God that brings you food, and harvests, and then fills your heart with joy. And I love how Paul's first gospel message to a wholly unchurched, you know, to use that language, audience was joy. And and so, right, not the not the stories of the old testament, but but he pointed to their joy, and he said, this god has not left himself without a witness. So the the one thing I would say to disenchanted people is I think a lot of people are, like, waiting for, like, a voice from heaven. You know, they're waiting for an audible voice from heaven. They wanna behold a miracle. But I would suggest that god has not ever left himself without a witness, and he's speaking. And so my last bit of advice is, like, widen the bandwidth for what counts as an encounter with god.
Richard Beck [00:35:58]:
And it and if things like moments of fleeting joy, being interrupted by joy, like on my bike ride to work, is to not just move past those moments, but dwell upon the communication that is occurring there, and to not just blow past it is like a trick of the mind, but suggest that God has been speaking to you his entire life, our entire lives.
Ryan Dunn [00:36:28]:
That's great. Thank you. Thank you so much for being part of our Compass community. We look forward to continuing to explore spirituality in the everyday with you. You might wanna listen to another episode coming soon. It's highly encouraged. So a great follow-up to this episode with Richard Beck might be episode 120, discovering evidence of the divine. It gives some framework for dealing with tough questions of faith.
Ryan Dunn [00:36:53]:
Episode 93 about experiencing God in nature with Victoria Lures, that would be a great follow-up to this episode as well. So couple good ones to follow-up this lesson. And again, while you're listening, leave that rating and or review. Really appreciate it. The compass podcast is brought to you by United Methodist Communications, and that's it for this week. We're gonna be back with another episode in 2 weeks time, so I will chat at you then. My name is Ryan Dunn, and I wish you peace.
