Join us as we explore the intersection of faith, culture, and personal experiences with Rev. Mark Feldmeir. Mark's faith journey led him to question the nature of God's power, especially in the face of suffering and evil. He emphasized that God's power is not coercive or unilateral, but rather persuasive. Mark also reflected on the significance of personal experiences with God, often recognized only in hindsight. He highlighted the importance of paying attention to the small, ordinary, and imperfect moments of life, as these often serve as avenues through which we can hear the voice of God.
In light of the episode's themes, we encourage you to reflect on the evidence of God's presence in your life. Are there specific habits or spiritual practices that you employ regularly to cultivate this awareness?
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Episode notes
Mark Feldmeir is the author of five books, including his latest work, Life after God: Finding Fath When You Can’t Believe Anymore. He has served on the Adjunct Faculty at Claremont School of Theology, where he has taught homiletics, and has spoken at various conferences throughout the country on topics ranging from preaching, politics, and pop culture. He currently serves as Lead Pastor at St. Andrew United Methodist Church in Highlands Ranch, Colorado.
In this episode:
(00:00) Let's reflect theologically on the movement of God
(00:43) Mark's academic journey challenges beliefs about God.
(03:48) Perception of God shifted by today's circumstances.
(09:11) Never doubted presence of God, but struggled with theological concepts.
(11:04) Reflecting on God's power when bad things happen.
(14:29) God sightings lead to purpose in life.
(19:21) Discerning gifts for ministry, meeting deep needs.
(21:20) Book aims for deconstruction and reconstruction, resonates.
(24:38) Discovery, uncertainty, faith seeking understanding, pilgrimage.
(27:39) Diverse practices connect me with the divine.
(32:26) Join us for meaningful episodes of Compass.
Compass is a production of United Methodist Communications.
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This episode posted on October 18, 2023
Episode Transcript:
Ryan Dunn:
Welcome to Compass, finding the divine in the everyday. I'm your host, Ryan Dunn. Michelle Maldonado is off in, Burundi, I believe. In this episode though, we're joined by reverend Mark Feldmeier. This is gonna be a profound exploration of God's power and its impact on our understanding of spirituality. We're continuing a series about challenging questions of faith. And in this episode, Our key question is, where do you see the action of God? Mark takes us on a journey through his personal experiences and struggles with the conventional conceptions of god that he was taught to believe in. As we navigate through Mark's story.
Ryan Dunn:
We discover how his encounters with challenging questions in academic studies, particularly those around the holocaust, led Mark to question how an all powerful god could allow such suffering. This exploration ultimately led Mark to a new understanding of god's power. One that is not really coercive or unilateral, but rather persuasive. Mark helps with theodicy, the reconciliation of god's all powerful and all loving nature, and invites us to consider new expressions of understanding god's hour. That's a lot, but it's all really uplifting and inspiring, so stick with us. And while you're listening, do us a solid favor. And drop a rating and review. Reviews help our visibility and assist more people in discovering the perspectives that we can share on compass.
Mark Feldmeir:
And let
Ryan Dunn:
me tell you a little bit more about reverend Mark Feldmeier. Mark is pastor of Saint Andrew United Methodist Church in Highlands Ranch, Colorado. He holds an MDiv from Claremont School of Theology where he has taught homiletics courses in addition to speaking at conferences about preaching, politics, and pop culture. Guess the big three piece. He's written 4 books including A House Divided, Engaging the Issues Through the Politics of Compassion, and most recently, Life After God, Finding Faith When You can't believe it. Which just came out in August of 2024. So let's get to the theodicy and a whole lot more on this episode of Compass. Pastor Mark, really appreciative of you joining us on the Compass podcast.
Ryan Dunn:
How goes it with your soul today?
Mark Feldmeir:
Great question, Ryan. My soul is good. It's a Monday, and so for many of us, In ordained ministry, full time parish work, Mondays are the, kind of the days of recovery, and, I take Fridays off, so even my Mondays are pretty full. So I'm I'm never at my best, and my soul is, is ready and open for, for receiving on Mondays. So, we had a a good day of worship yesterday and And and just getting off to a new a new week here.
Ryan Dunn:
Did you preach yesterday?
Mark Feldmeir:
I did. I preached yesterday on the story of Elijah and the call of God to lure him out of his cave and And back into the real world and to get back to work.
Ryan Dunn:
Mhmm. Okay. And now here you are on a Monday. Yeah. We're doing this interview. Lucky you. Yeah. Well, oh, man.
Ryan Dunn:
I feel kinda bad now that I'm starting off with such a a big encompassing question, but it is, something that you've already addressed. So so maybe it's a bit of a softball for you. But you've written that we have a quote unquote god problem in the modern world. Can you sum up for us what that god problem is?
Mark Feldmeir:
Yeah. I think I try to describe the God problem as one of perception or conception Rather than one of experience. And so what we know from much of the The demographic work that's being done on on Christians in general and younger Christians in particular, is that There's still a a a deep receptivity and longing for what we might call spiritual experiences, that wouldn't fall into the category of, sort of conventional orthodoxy, Conventional, historical, traditional Christian understandings of who God is. And some of that I think has to do with the fact that What we know are 2 things 1 those that are less receptive to traditional understandings of god and Christianity in particular are those that are a, younger, that is millennials and younger, And those that b are, more self described as liberal, in thinking, Whether that's political, social, theological, cultural, those that identify, as being more liberal or progressive on issues, both theological and insocial. And so what we have is a struggle with people coming to Understand the God that they've been told about and taught about in their churches over the years, and that has been handed down over, Many many centuries of of Christian, transmission. And so at the heart of that, My argument is that the heart of that problem is one of consumption. That we have these ideas of who God is, specifically attributes of God that we think are, That we are required to hold as, certain and, nonnegotiable. So some of those Attributes that we've inherited traditionally about God are about God's power, about God's knowledge, About god's love, and about, the, the the the future that god seems to have planned out for us in advance.
Mark Feldmeir:
And these and many other not not even mention conceptions of heaven and hell and God's judgment. My argument in the book is That many of these conventions of God that we've created over the centuries are far more influenced by Philosophical thought, and and in particular, western philosophical thought over the last 2000 years plus then they are descriptions of who God is and so where I find in my conversations with folks who are struggling with faith or who simply don't go to church They are less inclined to discount deep spiritual experiences, which they Might describe as, spiritual adventures, experiences that get them out into the world, into nature, Meditational practices, these kinds of things. But they're all experienced outside The walls of the church and outside of a Sunday morning, sermon. So that's the nature of the problem is how we've come to describe God And understand God conventionally as opposed to how more and more people today are really living these these experiences of the divine that don't fit into those categories.
Ryan Dunn:
There's a recent article that's gone viral, I think, released last week or the week prior from US News and World Report that, I mean, really just talked about the the cultural trend that you just Just spoke to you that, that there is a longing in a younger generation to have experiences of God, but it's also very individualized. So they are definitely seeking it beyond the walls, as you put it, of the the traditional church. But still that same longing Is there. And, of course, with that thing comes all kinds of questions about, you know, the knowability of god and what are some practices in which we do Find ourselves in community experiencing God. And sometimes when we're not able to or when I think what's what happens oftentimes in churches is that we propose to know an answer. And when that answer does not work for somebody, then they tend to to leave the faith. And our our answers can often Kinda lean towards the academic or the thoughtful and away from the experiential as you've put it. You did bring up, Early in your book about going to seminary, this place where we explore God in a thoughtful way, sometimes the experiential comes in.
Ryan Dunn:
You wrote that you had become you went to seminary to become a pastor. And in that process, you lost your faith. Can you describe the the faith that you lost? Yeah.
Mark Feldmeir:
And how I frame that is, never in that experience Going through seminary and post seminary, did I lose a very rich assurance of God's presence in my life? There were times where that presence seemed thin and distant, but never did I find myself Doubting that there was a god or even that there was a very real and present god in my life. But where the queen has occurred for me was around, Again, some of these conventions, conceptions of God that I was told one way or another, and maybe I told myself this, That this is the God I have to believe in in order to have a faith that is within the bounds of orthodoxy and not Horrible, if you will. And so for me, that crisis occurred around this, This paradox, this dilemma that we would describe as theodicy. Theos meaning God, d k meaning justice. And the work of theodicy is to try to reconcile This paradox of God's all powerful nature, and God's all loving nature, and to say bad things happen in the world, Bad things happen in our lives, and if God truly is all powerful, why didn't and God is all loving. Why didn't God intervene as an act of love to prevent me or the world from suffering. And so Part of this came out of my own experience in undergrad work. I actually majored in religious studies, As I was familiar with many theological concepts, I was raised in the church.
Mark Feldmeir:
I was particularly in tune with The, the plight of the of of the of the Jews through, their their their whole lived experience, but in particular the holocaust And trying to understand how, the worst expression of genocide on the planet, How how how do we speak of God in that context? And so I had a particular professor that I described in the book who Who challenged me on my own understandings of how an all powerful god can also be an all loving god. And Through that process, understood that my understandings of the power of God had to change in order for me to affirm That God is indeed all loving, and so that journey led me to new expressions of How we understand God's power. And to say that that God's power is not one of coercion, Not one of unilateral activity in our lives in which God's intervening in in the everyday events to make things happen Or to not make things happen, for good things. But that maybe God the work of God is less coercive And and more persuasive. And then we understand that in our lives and in the world, evil excess. God didn't create this evil. God simply gives us the the the agency and power to resist evil. And in the process, continues to call us or persuade us toward the good.
Mark Feldmeir:
So that in every moment, both good and evil are before us, and we can choose either 1. And, and and god it's not only that god allows these things to happen, but that God doesn't have the power to intervene, in these events, in in the events of evil that we would describe. And so with that, I could affirm fully The love of God, that, that is present everywhere and always for all people in every moment. And so it was through the the the doorway or the gateway of theodicy that I came to then Reimagine other, concepts of God that were less orthodox. But far my argument is far more Biblical. Both Hebrew and Christian scriptures would validate.
Ryan Dunn:
With the idea of God being this, kind of divine inviter. There might be a a sense that God is a bit Disconnected from the actions of of the world that, you know, god is kind of this divine watchmaker. I believe you wrote about that as well and and then invites us to be a a part of the process. So in in accepting that god is that divine inviter and god is active in the world. Have there been some moments when you've seen evidence of the movement of god or where there are some god sightings that that led you into this new understanding of faith.
Mark Feldmeir:
Yeah. Let me let me frame that Response by saying, my own personal experience has been that those god sightings, Often, we only can feel a degree of certainty about them, once they're over, in looking That may be a momentary, like, we just experienced this and moments later we say that was it. It could be that We experienced something years ago and look back, and we begin to connect the dots and say what, What many would describe as this predestined, predetermined plan for our lives starts to look more like a A broader purpose if you will. This idea that God has for us about our ideal future, And then persuades or invites, I like the language lure as well or or beckons We're choosing those best options for us in every given moment. And when we do that, we have these little these little whispers, To use the language of the Elijah story that I preached on yesterday, the sound of sheer silence as it's called or other versions, The gentle whisper or the still small voice. Those are so often spoken in the small, The ordinary and the imperfect expressions of our daily lives. And so I can look back and say, There actually seemed to be some purpose to me being in a room with a professor Who challenged me on my theodicy that then broke open this new and rather Painful and long journey toward reconstruction of my faith that some would call it providence. I use preference more loosely because it seems like, again, that is is sort of orchestrating rather than inviting.
Mark Feldmeir:
And I want to affirm at all times human agency in the pursuit of the god life, but But I can look at that. I'm I'm a pastor today in a church just outside of Denver. I've been here a little over 9 years. And Was born and raised in Southern California. Never thought I would leave California ever. Was, pastoring a church in, San Diego. I could see the beach every day. I get a ball out of the blue from, a bishop Inviting me to think about a cross conference transfer to come to Denver to church that was that was insignificant turmoil at the time.
Mark Feldmeir:
Oh, and a a very Important strategic church to our denomination. And so I am inclined To say, there's a prompting here, and I wanna pay attention to it. And so my original impulse to say no, led me to some deeper discernment and prayer about how God might be involved in this, and Over the next few days, I found myself persuaded to say yes to something I never imagined possible. So these are I mean, it would be great to get a a a thundering voice, burning bush
Ryan Dunn:
Yeah. Right.
Mark Feldmeir:
A visit From an angel, or some words in neon lights in the dark sky. I think most of the time, What we encounter instead is this loaded silence of God, which is not evidence of God's absence, but But requires us to listen deeply, to where and how God is calling us. And, that's That sort of defines not only my personal life, but it defines my ministry as a pastor. Yeah. Well, if
Ryan Dunn:
you don't mind me asking about that experience of call to Colorado, it wasn't an easy move, I imagine. You have a family, so they would have had to be a part of this as well. And no doubt I mean, anytime you leave a a church family behind, there Our our feelings of mourning accompany that. So it's not necessarily, just a a simple invitation to Come from San Diego to to Colorado. What were the feelings or the moments or, points of evidence that Felt like a, felt like a compelling movement for you to Except this call to Colorado.
Mark Feldmeir:
For me, in that moment, it was a discernment around what my unique gifts are for ministry And whether or not those gifts were still needed in the current context that I was in as much as I love that space, But knowing what the unique and very, very, deep needs of my current church were at the time, and This sense that I, I could do it, that I had the unique gifts that maybe others didn't have. I was not the 1st to be, Invited to consider this church. And who knows? Maybe I was the last, and that's fine too. But there was this sense of of deep need that was being met to use sort of, Frederick Beecher's imagery of Our deepest joys or gifts, meeting or intersecting with the world's deepest needs. I take that language. I thought there was a very unique Intersection there, and that invited me into that space. And and to my point earlier, I didn't know In the 1st couple years, whether that was the best move at that time in my life. I came in 2014.
Mark Feldmeir:
I I didn't know until maybe 2017 that it was a that it was the right move for me. I had I had glimpses of it, but But looking back, I can say, as the psalmist says that what is it? 1 psalm 1139 maybe or 39. Where the psalmist is looking back and and saying as he went through the sea, he wasn't sure. But looking back, you can see the footsteps of God walking with him. I think that's how most of the time we envision our our future, as playing out according to some purpose by looking back in time.
Ryan Dunn:
There have been any moments recently that have inspired your faith or where you have felt like, oh, this has been a movement of God?
Mark Feldmeir:
Well, I wrote this book, and the, you know, the book is has been described by a lot of reviewers as a new More progressive, apologetic, which, is true and yet it that wasn't the purpose. It was It's intended to be a book that is one of both deconstruction and reconstruction. And Almost daily, I hear from readers, from around the country who email me and And indicate where it was in certain points in the book that touched them and that helped them. I had conversations, every Sunday With people, at my current church at Saint Andrew who who say I, you know, I didn't have the words to give voice to this experience and you're helping me do that. I I I take immense pride and joy and delight in In that feedback where I know I'm walking beside people, and I'm not too far ahead of people, in this journey, And that they find some resonance and, some connection with with what I'm trying to do. That inspires me personally To continue the work I'm doing, and and to enter into these these new spaces about how we understand God, To give ourselves permission to do that. I've come to see that most of our experiences with God are as to use that old sort of cliche, like the the blind man reaching And feeling around different parts of the of the elephant and trying to describe what the elephant is. And And, you know, a lot of Christians, they get together and and one of us is feeling the trunk, and it feels soft and even moist.
Mark Feldmeir:
And Others are feeling like a tusk, and it feels sharp and smooth and hard. And others feel, you know, a leg and it's leathery. And And we're all naming this this experience. Where where we fail is that We stop exploring the elephant. We just stop with the first thing we feel and we describe that as God, when the journey of faith is to continue to explore. And when we do that, we We find less division in our conversations about faith for that matter, about how God works in the world and how why our world is the way it is. And we have more conversation about what your experience means to mine and where I might go next to explore. I My personal life is one that says I wanna continue to feel around that elephant and continue to describe it the best I can And to walk with people who are doing that too.
Ryan Dunn:
Yeah. How do you name that as a value for your faith community, for your congregation? Do you find that it's it's something that you have to keep reminding people of, like, oh, we're all you know, to continue on the analogy that We're all feeling around the elephant, and we're gonna have our different experiences.
Mark Feldmeir:
I think the work that we've done at at Saint Andrew Is one where one of our great values is discovery. And one of the points Of of real concern for us as a people is around certainty. So As Anselm of the 10th, 11th century said, you know, theology is, as he described it, faith seeking intelligence or understanding I think in the modern world we've transcribed that to mean faith Seeking certainty and we reach a point of certainty that's where we stop growing as people of faith And so a a big part of my preaching and my teaching is is one of saying, Faith seeking understanding is is the work that we need to be doing. And not only understanding as it relates to the mind, but Faith seeking experience, and the deeper we get into real lived human experience to get outside of our brains And and onto our feet using our hands. Example would be, last summer, I took a group of young adults, a dozen young adults From my congregation, we went to walk a portion of the Camino de Santiago in Spain. A 1000 year old pilgrimage trail that Christians have been have been walking, and There was no sort of there there was no deliberate intentional educational component to that except Along the way, we're gonna walk. We're gonna talk. When we're finished, we're gonna do a spiritual exercise.
Mark Feldmeir:
When we begin, we'll do a spiritual exercise. But let's get on our feet. Let's get into the world. And out of that experience, I think we all Felt some transformation that, that we couldn't do inside the walls of our church in in the pews. So again, it's It's another part of the elephant. Yeah.
Ryan Dunn:
And, again, it seems to pull back to that experiential where the only I guess the only named objective that it seemed that you had on that trip was just to provide an experience that may lead to Yeah. A sense of of God's movement. I feel like we're gonna have to link the sermon that you just gave last weekend because I'm gonna go back and talk about it again. But You're preaching about Elijah. And and in order to have that kind of experience, it seemed that Elijah retreated to a cave. Right? That's It's what allowed Elijah the space to to kind of reflect on on God's movement. Are there any specific habits or specific spiritual practices that You employ regularly, you know, maybe more often than than your pilgrimage to Spain that help you cultivate an awareness of God's presence or movement.
Mark Feldmeir:
Holding a diversity of practices that that don't allow me to fall into some predictable pattern. Because with those patterns and habits, we can immediately either get legalistic about it or and and that fades into sort of this There's boredom around what we do, so I try to mix it up. I, a few things that that tend to work Really well for me, in in connecting me with the divine. I I have practices of Or I follow the, a portion of the daily offices, which is just I don't do there are 3 daily offices throughout the day. You can do just 1, which I do. A simple prayer, a quick scripture reading, a time for reflection. That that has worked historically really well for me. Not lengthy practices, but moments where I can regather myself.
Mark Feldmeir:
I I take breathing and practice of breathing seriously. I I use an app to do that because, It forces me to slow down. I do walk and and I'm a avid cyclist, and so These getting into my body is really important because I tend to live in my head, this the way I'm wired. And so the more physical I can get, the more I seem to access, spiritual, energy. And, I when I have a chance, I do some fly fishing. And, here in Colorado to be out In the mountains, and, there's nobody around to listen, to hear, to feel, to sense. Every sensory, Is is touched there. And so those are important.
Mark Feldmeir:
And I would say that the last one, and these maybe this doesn't seem like a practice, but I've tried to make it a I did I do a lot of sort of 1 on 1 with people in my office. They're going through a crisis or, a transition in their life, or having questions. And I try to encounter the other in these moments, through spiritual practice to be present, to be, deeply mindful of the other, to ask questions That invite the other, invite me into their space. And so as maybe odd as it sounds, conversation With the other is for me a spiritual practice where I acknowledge, in my own mind That the one before me is, is an expression of the divine. And how do I that connection.
Ryan Dunn:
That's reassuring to hear from a a person in leadership because it seems that you're approaching these conversations with the sense that you have something to receive from the other person.
Mark Feldmeir:
I I described 1 individual Who had a significant impact on me and I only knew him by his first name. His name was Thomas. And he was, Basically, a wandering preacher who had no home in Southern California and would come to visit me once a month. And his only request was that he could pray over me and bless me. And, Thomas and I had this Unlikely remarkable friendship for about 5 years. And, and it was because I was open To this stranger who didn't look like me, whose story was completely unlike mine, well, at least From outward appearances. And yet, came with a deep sense of, grace And, invited me, to receive. And so I learned a lot from Thomas, and I try to Continue that, tradition.
Ryan Dunn:
Well, Pastor Mark, thank you for lending your time to us today and for, lending your wisdom. We have been hopefully open and receiving here as well. It's been a a pleasure speaking with you. And, touching on some of the things that you lift up in life after God Is a good place to get a hold
Mark Feldmeir:
of you or to follow-up on some of the things that you're working on? Folder.com is
Ryan Dunn:
your website? Is
Mark Feldmeir:
my website. You can learn a little bit more about me, and I always post, material there that people can download. And, and the Saint Andrew website, which is go saint andrew.com, has all my messages that are easy to find and, both video and audio.
Ryan Dunn:
Perfect.
Mark Feldmeir:
Thanks,
Ryan Dunn:
Thank you for joining us on this episode of Compass. Hey. If you found this episode meaningful, I definitely Think that you're gonna like our episode with Josh Scott about making sense of the bible. It was episode 117. In Episode 107 with Casey Tigard about restlessness and faith is gonna connect well too. I'm Ryan Dunn. Michelle and I will be back in another 2 weeks with a fresh episode of Compass. Compass is a production of United Methodist Communications.
Ryan Dunn:
You can find out all about Compass and see notes and other episodes at umc.org/compass. Talk to you in a couple weeks. Peace.
