Pastor David Livingston discusses the concept of abundant life and how it can be experienced in the present. He emphasizes that abundant life is not solely about material well-being or a perfect life, but rather about finding spiritual and emotional well-being in the midst of life's challenges.
Pastor Livingston shares his personal experience with anxiety and how he has found peace and permission to be anxious through reframing the language of Jesus' command to not be anxious. He also discusses the importance of setting boundaries and prioritizing self-care in order to maintain spiritual and emotional health.
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Episode Notes:
David is lead pastor at Old Mission United Methodist Church in Fairway, Kansas, and the author of "Getting to Good: Moving to a Fuller More Abundant Life Right Now".
In this episode:
00:00 Reverend David shares wisdom on spirituality and coping.04:53 Struggle with anxiety, find peace through faith.
09:07 Mother soothing and comforting child with words.
11:04 Individual response to anxiety has biochemical basis.
13:00 Setting boundaries to manage anxiety and stress.
18:15 Staff sponsored Bible halted, allowing others to help.
19:53 Parenting: allowing kids to fail, avoid catastrophizing.
22:54 Disagreement with Romans 8:28 passage interpretation.
28:23 Life is hard, but there's redemption.
30:09 Journaling and prayer can bring clarity and faith.
32:43 Devotional books help encounter the divine.
37:23 Peter's story reveals redemption in the gospel.
39:12 New episode in 2 weeks. Chat then. Peace.
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This episode posted on July 10, 2024
Episode Transcript:
Ryan Dunn [00:00:00]:
Welcome back to Compass Finding Spirituality in the Everyday. I'm your host, Ryan Dunn. And this episode explores themes of growth, faith, and resilience. This episode releases on July 10, 2024. And as we're releasing this, we're having issues with our RSS feed. The RSS feed is how the episode actually reaches your ears. So this episode will initially only be available on some podcast platforms, and you may have already noticed other episodes are missing from those platforms as well. So as I speak, our team is working really hard to get the issue resolved.
Ryan Dunn [00:00:36]:
And hopefully, we'll be back with having the full slate of Compass episodes available everywhere very soon. For this episode, we're joined by Reverend David Livingston, who brings a wealth of wisdom from his pastoral experiences and his personal journey through life's challenges, including in this episode, a poignant story of his mother's battle with cancer. Also, in this episode, we'll explore the transformative power of journaling, prayer, and meditation as tools for spiritual connection and for coping with grief. David Scheer's house setting boundaries, and this is something I needed to learn, and practicing self care can sustain emotional and spiritual health. We also tackle the tough questions about anxiety and faith, discussing how anxiety is a biological process and reframing biblical commands to foster inner peace. There's also a little nugget of a Bible reading plan embedded in this episode, so listen for that. And with that, here we go. Pastor David, thank you so much for joining us.
Ryan Dunn [00:01:43]:
How goes it with your soul today?
David Livingston [00:01:46]:
It's a good day today talking about some new ministry possibilities in the nearby city and, having a good time. How are you?
Ryan Dunn [00:01:54]:
Alright. I'm doing very well too. I always get excited when people start talking about new ministry possibilities because, it's 1 of the areas that I cover. Are you able to disclose anything about what you're working on?
David Livingston [00:02:08]:
Some some partnerships. I really I really can't. It's too early. But, yeah, a nearby city that has some some good options, good possibilities.
Ryan Dunn [00:02:17]:
Cool. Well, we are talking about possibility in life and, kind of inspiring some hope today. We're we're basing this conversation out of your book, Getting to Good. Part of the book draws from this promise that Jesus gives that, through him, people can encounter life abundantly or this promise of abundant life. How do you find or how do you define abundant life? What is he talking about there?
David Livingston [00:02:46]:
Yeah. That's a good question. And of course that comes from John. I think there's a couple of different ways that people usually will do that. A lot of people will talk about that as being, this only a, abundant life in the hereafter, I think we'll say. And is that a promise about eternity, not about this life? And, I think that's there's truth to that. But at the same time in the gospels, you know, we find Jesus healing people who are sick, giving food to people who are hungry. I I don't think it's the case that Jesus wants us to be, whether God wants us to be impoverished in this world.
David Livingston [00:03:23]:
And on the other hand, there's also people who will take a prosperity gospel approach to that and say, well, that abundant life, you know, that justifies me having a private plane or And I agree. I think whatever it might be. And, and I think that's a, a kind of false gospel, but I think I think I think that abundant life is about both an eternal life as well as a here and a now kind of life, but not like a gut rich quick scheme. Yes. Prosperity gospel seems seems to be. Not that if you're faithful, life will be perfect, kind of thing. You know, we know that's not true. So I think for me, abundant life has to do with something that happens in this life, but is not based on material well-being.
David Livingston [00:04:14]:
It it means a kind of a spiritual and emotional well-being. And so that's really what the book is is about. Given the reality that we don't have perfect lives, how can we find ways in the real world issues that we have that impact our spiritual well-being that we can find some peace in the midst of that.
Ryan Dunn [00:04:35]:
So what are some characteristics of abundant life in your in your own experience? Like what do you look at? What do you look at in your life and say, well, these are some of the marks that I see that I'm encountering or experiencing an abundant life that Jesus was referencing.
David Livingston [00:04:53]:
So I think an example for me would be, the second chapter of the book. I talk about anxiety, and I use some some personal examples of where anxiety, really had a full grip on me with panic attacks. And, I don't go into too much detail, but the truth is that that those panic attacks for me had become fairly debilitating. And and so it's not the case that now all of a sudden, because I know Jesus, the anxiety is gone. Right? That's still a real peace. But there is at the same time, there is such a thing as the peace that surpasses understanding. And in the midst of, what still is a stressful environment, You know, there's, there and we might talk about this some later on, but there's there is an ability, I think, to have a a cognizance that even though the world is hard right now, there will be a time when that's not the case. And and so that gives you a spiritual or for me, at least, can give me a spiritual peace of mind, that I otherwise might not have.
David Livingston [00:06:02]:
There's AAA chapter about getting to good with bad, and the truth is bad things happen. Does that mean that god is absent, or can we find ways that god's present even in, the bad that happens, aging? My birthday was yesterday. I'm 51 now.
Ryan Dunn [00:06:21]:
Oh, congrats.
David Livingston [00:06:23]:
At 51, that felt a little bit different than just 50 for some reason for me. I don't know why. But, in the aging process, what's it look like to be able to be in a better place with the physical changes that happened for us, the maturity changes that happened for us? Can
Ryan Dunn [00:06:40]:
I Go back? I and I appreciate you sharing authentically about your experience with anxiety and experiencing panic attacks. Anxiety well, we all encounter it.
David Livingston [00:06:50]:
Mhmm.
Ryan Dunn [00:06:51]:
Some of us far more deeply than others. As you were going through periods of anxiety that led to panic attacks, was there, like, an internal dialogue that, called into question your your faith in a way that, oh, well, you know, I I can't settle down or I can't settle my mind because I just don't have enough faith. Was that part of what was driving some of that anxiety for you?
David Livingston [00:07:16]:
Yeah. I don't know if it was driving the anxiety, but it certainly wasn't helping it go away. Yeah. Okay. And and and in the book, I mean, I addressed that pretty point blank in the beginning. Jesus says, you know, consider the lilies. Everybody knows that. Right? And the lilies.
David Livingston [00:07:32]:
God. Why would you be anxious? He says. In fact, he says, do not be anxious. When I was in the throes of of real panic or real anxiety issues, the single least helpful thing for somebody to say to me would be, well, just stop it. Don't be anxious.
Ryan Dunn [00:07:50]:
Right. Yeah. No worries. Yeah. So often we throw that verse around, like, oh, just don't worry. Like, oh, 0, it's just that simple. Right?
David Livingston [00:07:58]:
Not at all. Yeah. Yeah. So and and there's a I mean, there's a really common idea that if you just have more faith, you won't you won't worry. You won't have anxiety. You won't have fear. And that's just not true. I mean, for 1 thing, that's not how our bodies work.
David Livingston [00:08:13]:
Like nobody makes a decision faith. There's a decision component to faith, but nobody makes a decision. Now I will be anxious. Now I will be fearful. Right? So that's just not how it works. So, 1 of the things that was helpful for me specifically with that verse is the idea of reframing that language. It comes across as a command. Grammatically, it's a command.
David Livingston [00:08:38]:
Do not be worried. Do not be anxious. That's a command kind of language and imperative. But I don't believe that's the way that Jesus actually intended for that, to be heard. I use an example from back in in my childhood, when, I was scared of thunderstorms. I'm scared of the dark. I was scared of lots of stuff when I was a kid. I would, I would call out for my mom, and my faithful mom would always come to my bed, and she would sit down.
David Livingston [00:09:07]:
But I remember as her sitting down and and rubbing my back to help calm me down, and, and she would say something like, don't don't be afraid. Don't be anxious. I'm right down the hall, or I'm right downstairs. It's gonna be okay. What I'm able to think back on that now as is that when my mom is sitting on my bed rubbing my back and saying, don't be afraid. Don't be anxious. If I had said, but I am anxious, she said she wouldn't say back to me, David, I said, don't be anxious. Right? It's not an order.
David Livingston [00:09:45]:
It's permission. You don't have to be anxious
Ryan Dunn [00:09:49]:
if you
David Livingston [00:09:49]:
are, and it's okay if you are. But you don't have to be because it's going to be trust me that it's going to be okay. And, and so now I hear for myself and those bones I should say, a small dose of medication prescribed appropriately on my doctor is a fantastic gift from God and has helped me to my own anxiety. But when I do have some of those more anxious moments, though, I'm able to go back and say, you know what? It's not it's okay. It's okay to be anxious. It's not a lack of faith. It's a biological process, a biochemical process. And, it's not sinful.
David Livingston [00:10:26]:
It's not a lack of faith. And I have permission, to be anxious, but I also have permission not to be anxious.
Ryan Dunn [00:10:34]:
So as a child, you had this very physical experience of your mother consoling you. Are there some ways now that, you're able to kind of provide a a practical experience where you get the same kind of consolation through your your faith? Like, are is there a spiritual practice that you employ that maybe helps, keep you from cycling down or spiraling down into a deep anxious moment that leads to panic?
David Livingston [00:11:04]:
Well, I think there's a psychological piece there and that, what works for 1 person may not work for somebody else too as well. But what I what I do know, the the biochemical, like, those those anxious moments, there is real chemistry that's happening there. So that your body, when you feel anxious, your body feels threatened and you can't turn it off any less than if there's a bear standing right in front of you, threatening you physically, and the bear, is a real physical threat. Your body treats it like a real physical threat. I don't I wanna be careful about over spiritualizing it and saying Yeah. You know, like, if if there was a bear standing in front of you, I would encourage people not to just pray to god. God, help this bear not kill me. Right? You need to take a physical step in that regard.
David Livingston [00:12:01]:
So for me, for anxiety, meditating is helpful. Just laying down is helpful. Finding a quiet spot is helpful. Reminding myself. You don't wanna, focus too much on the anxiety, but it's okay to acknowledge. Don't deny it. Don't try to don't try to don't try to make yourself not anxious, because that'll just, cause the cycle.
Ryan Dunn [00:12:25]:
Yeah. It's no balls.
David Livingston [00:12:26]:
Yeah. Yeah. So I I don't wanna I don't wanna over spiritualize it, but because it is a physical reaction. But whatever you can do to quiet your soul, whatever you can do to quiet your body. In the book, I recommend 1 practice I recommend as a breath prayer. You breathe breathe in, a word that you use for god. Breathe out what it is that you need from God. So Jesus, call my soul.
David Livingston [00:12:56]:
Jesus, call my soul would be 1 example of how that can work.
Ryan Dunn [00:13:00]:
It's funny as you were speaking through that, I started breathing a little bit like that myself and feeling a little bit more relaxed in the moment. 1 of the things that that keeps me from spiraling down into deep episodes of anxiety is putting things in their right place, so to speak. So, and for me, that means compartmentalizing or putting boundaries around things like work. And that's not something that I've always had a healthy relationship with. And I think in our society, a lot of people fall into this mode of thinking where, you know, work can be life or this other aspect can be life. I know when I was working as a youth minister, I was recruiting a volunteer who had been a former youth minister, and he ended up saying no as a volunteer. He said, because when I was in youth ministry, I had an affair with my job. And I I thought that sounded kinda silly at the time until a year later, I realized that I was on the verge of doing the same thing.
Ryan Dunn [00:14:02]:
Like, I had I could not say no. I would be like, well, hey. I've only got 4 meetings at night this week. You know, I can fill up that 5th or 6th night. That's fine. And that's very unhealthy. Can you elaborate on how setting boundaries has has put some perspective and health into your spiritual life and emotional life?
David Livingston [00:14:26]:
Yeah. Well, that's an interesting metaphor because, I spend most of the time when I talk about boundaries, thinking about boundaries between people. But the way that you talked about that as an affair, our our jobs, can be like that other person or the church organization can be like that other person. And so that really is a helpful way to think about it. And, thinking about your priorities. So are you putting are you putting a spouse ahead of? And 1 of the things that's important, which we miss. So the great commandment, Matthew 22, loving God with all of our heart and soul, strength, and mind, loving our neighbor as ourselves. I think I said Matthew 22.
David Livingston [00:15:11]:
I think it's actually Matthew 20. But anyway, we think I think about that usually as 2 commandments. Right? That and Jesus says it that way, really. There's 2 commandments. 1 is to love god. The other 1 is to love neighbor. That's how we often will, talk about it. But there's a hidden third commandment in there too.
David Livingston [00:15:29]:
So love god is a commandment.
Ryan Dunn [00:15:31]:
Right.
David Livingston [00:15:32]:
And then love neighbor is a commandment. But but what's it say about loving your neighbor? How do you love your neighbor? Yeah. You love your neighbor.
Ryan Dunn [00:15:38]:
That's why I love yourself.
David Livingston [00:15:39]:
And so if you're if you don't set boundaries for yourself, number 1, nobody else is going to. Mhmm. There's not been a time in the history of the church when somebody has said to a volunteer at the church or a staff person at the church, here's something that we really need to have you have somebody do, and you're not gonna do it because you have to, take care of yourself instead. Like, we don't do that. When we have a volunteer, we're like, fantastic. We've got a volunteer. So, what what's that mean about loving yourself? Are you, are you really loving yourself if you never put yourself first? And so what I suggest to people is I don't think it's healthy for us to put ourselves ahead of other people, but we don't put ourselves behind other people either. You're you're worth just as much, Ryan, as the organization that you work for.
David Livingston [00:16:34]:
You're worth just as much as the other person who who wants to manipulate your time. And so there's kind of, to be cliche, there's a little bit of that whole put your mask your oxygen mask on first before the, child that you're sitting next to in the airplane. You you have to take care of yourself, and setting those boundaries is 1 of the ways that you can can do that. Go ahead.
Ryan Dunn [00:16:58]:
I was just thinking you're in a profession that demands quite a bit as a lead pastor of a church. You you probably, in most days, feeling like there's a little bit more that you could have been that you could have done and carrying some some guilt with that. So how do you practice this self care that that you're, that you're, that you're asking us for with within your own life? Like, what kind of boundaries do you have around your work life schedule?
David Livingston [00:17:26]:
Yeah. That's a good question. So 1 of the things that's become really important for me is, to remember that, there's a lot of areas where if I do something as senior pastor in particular, if I do something, then that means that somebody else will not be able to do that. If if if there's anybody else who can do something, it's good for me to delegate to that person from a professional standpoint. Even from a personal standpoint, if we've got well, 1 thing that we've done here, we we had a a habit when we handed out 3rd grade bibles. We have at this church, the practice has been that individuals can basically, like, sponsor that bible. They'll they'll pay for that. They can leave a message, for the student in that.
David Livingston [00:18:15]:
And, we had, when I arrived, a number of staff who would really quickly have somebody who they wanted to sponsor that Bible for. So we stopped that because those kids already know hopefully that the staff are there for them. But on when we do that, then we prevent somebody else from being able to do that. So 1 of the things that happens when I'm able to say no is that that allows somebody else to say yes, who needs to say yes more than what I need to do for myself. Another piece for that for me, and this may be more as a pastor. I'm not sure if this will be a great answer or not for, for people who are in, other other kinds of roles on life. But, it's okay for people to fail. God doesn't judge us when we fail.
David Livingston [00:19:03]:
Right? And god doesn't judge other people when they fail too. So, we had a situation just recently, here at the church where I had to make a decision for myself. Is this particular piece so important that it absolutely has to happen? And in order for it to happen, I have to step in personally to make sure it happens. Or would it be okay for us to learn a lesson by having this fail? And then we we learn something valuable, and we can pick up the pieces, and we can we can move on as a as a church. Or sometimes things just need to die, and that's okay too. But if we always are saving, like, you don't have to be the savior for everything. You're not supposed to. Yeah.
David Livingston [00:19:48]:
Right? We have a savior already.
Ryan Dunn [00:19:50]:
Yeah. Well, we fall into that as parents all the time too. Right?
David Livingston [00:19:53]:
Absolutely. And, like, the best choices as a parent, the best choices that we've made, I think, are when we've chosen Tracy and I to not step in and to to let, you know, it's better for from a parenting standpoint, it's better to let a child fail when they're younger, and the stakes are not as high. And so sometimes in the church and in other places of life, we artificially elevate the the stakes. So, like, I talk about this in a different section of the book, but we catastrophize sometimes. Like, we we decide, okay. What's the absolute worst thing that's gonna that could happen? And that's what's going to happen, and almost always, that's not the case. If you don't have this is not what we were dealing with. But if you don't have the nursery 1 Sunday because you don't have the volunteers to run the nursery 1 Sunday, what's the worst thing that's gonna happen? You're gonna have some extra noise in the sanctuary.
David Livingston [00:20:46]:
The noise of kids in the sanctuary is great anyway. It's okay if that doesn't happen 1 week. And then maybe the church has learned a lesson that, wow, if we don't have our volunteers, we really can't make this happen, and that's a good lesson for us to learn. Yeah.
Ryan Dunn [00:21:00]:
Do you think God does that in to us individually?
David Livingston [00:21:04]:
I think sometimes so. 1 of the harder parts of this book is a section called, getting to good with bad. And that's, you know, again, part of our reality is that we live in a world where bad things happen. So the question of why. And some people would disagree with me, but I I think that there are times when, there's times when bad things happen because of the choices that I make. You know, sometimes bad things happen because of the choices others make that affect me. I think sometimes there's bad things that happen because, because god does not miraculously step in to intervene and and allow something to happen, iron sharpening iron to use a biblical language. But again, not when we're talking about some of those most critical moments of our of our life, either our present life or our eternal life.
Ryan Dunn [00:21:57]:
I feel comfortable asking this question because I feel like you've probably answered this question a few times over your tenure as a, as a professional minister. Where do you get a sense God is moving in those instances when it's not a personal decision that causes bad things to happen, but bad things are just inflicted upon people. Say, like, a natural disaster or or Yeah. You know, we can go as far to say, Palestinian people in in Gaza. You know? Where is God moving in that?
David Livingston [00:22:29]:
Yeah. Those are the harder ones, something like a natural disaster in particular, because it's hard to, it's hard to pin the blame for that on a person or a group of people's sin. Right? You can't say an earthquake cap well, or at least most of us would not say an earthquake happened because of True. Yeah. Doing their There are
Ryan Dunn [00:22:52]:
those voices out there who have said that. Yeah.
David Livingston [00:22:54]:
Yeah. So off base. A couple of things that for me are really, really important about that. 1 is there's a passage, Romans 828, and the particular translation that works for me with this is the New International Version. 1 of the ways that other versions say this this verse is all things work together, for good for those who love god. And I find that not to be the case. I remember listening to a radio show years years ago, and, it's a Christian radio show, and and the host brought on a couple. And, the couple was talking about their experience.
David Livingston [00:23:38]:
They really wanted kids. They weren't getting pregnant. Finally, they got pregnant, and they were just rejoicing in that, grateful to God for that. And then they had a miscarriage. And then the host says, and you knew that God was at work in that, right? And that there was gonna be good that comes from this. And they're like, yeah. And then they had another miscarriage. And then I think I think they had, a child that was born and then died in infancy.
David Livingston [00:24:03]:
I mean, like, it was a horrible story. The host just keeps saying, and you know that this is still part of God's plan. You know, I don't think that's part of God's plan. But here's the other way, and this is how the NIV does it. The other translation for that verse is all things, God works for the good. And that I believe in all thing. It doesn't mean that all things are good.
Ryan Dunn [00:24:27]:
Yeah. Or that there's a divine plan behind all things. Yes. Or that
David Livingston [00:24:31]:
yeah. So I think about it as I think about our lives kind of like a a book. I guess I'm a I'm a reader and I'm a writer. So I think about it like the book. And and we know, what the chapters of the book are in our lives up until this point. And then what lies ahead is is a mystery. That part of the book isn't written yet or at least we haven't seen it, except we do know the last chapter. So we know how the book ends.
David Livingston [00:25:00]:
And in any good book, any good movie, there's gonna be conflict. Right? That's part of conflict as a literary device. Not necessarily conflict between 2 people, but there's gotta be some, there's gotta be stakes, right? Yeah. There's gonna be twists and turns. There's gonna be plot twists, But we know how the last chapter ends. And so for me, from a faith standpoint, that helps me a lot in those moments. My mom, the book is dedicated to my mom. She died in 2021.
David Livingston [00:25:37]:
She always wanted me to write a book. And so, so I'm grateful that I've been able to write that book. And she died in 2021 from from cancer. And what was the cause of the cancer? I don't think anybody knows. Would it matter? No. She she died either way. But I also know that's not through faith, that that's not the end of her story, and that's not the end of my relationship with her. And that's the last chapter.
David Livingston [00:26:09]:
So what happens between now and then? I didn't know in 2021 when she died, that in 2023, I would start working on a book and have it published in 2024. That becomes part of the story as we go along. So we get to, live that story with some unpredictability until we get to that last chapter and and then have the resolution.
Ryan Dunn [00:26:31]:
How do you stay grounded in that hopefulness? So you've shared this very personal story. I'm sure that in 2021, as your mother was going through her end of life experience, there were probably moments when you were questioning, could this, how could something good come out of this? So are there ways that you kind of keep yourself grounded then in a mindset of, of hope? Are there practices that you utilize?
David Livingston [00:26:55]:
Yeah. I mean, you don't always see it. 1 of the things that's really helpful and a lot of people have, of, of all kinds of traditions have done this, but 1 of the things that can be really helpful is journaling. Because when you journal, when you like actually write those pieces down, some people do that as a prayer practice. They'll journal prayers. That can be very helpful. But even just as a diary, that can be helpful because then you can look back, you know, pastorally, I've been a pastor for 25 years, and, 26 years, I guess, now. And so, like, I I've been around cancer a lot, but my mom's death was the first parent who died.
David Livingston [00:27:36]:
And so, I could I could always be next to somebody as they're dealing with death, but now I know what it means to have a parent die. So I'm a better pastor now than what I was prior to my mom's death in the fall of 2021. I didn't I didn't know that until after that experience happened. And until I worked through some of the grief from that experience happening too, for that matter. So I only know that in retrospect. And I think that's usually what happens for us when we're in those really difficult points in in life. So we can and and we can remind ourselves in the moment about that Romans 828. We can remind ourselves there will be some way in which some kind of good doesn't make up it doesn't always make up for the bad.
David Livingston [00:28:23]:
Like, it's still a bad thing, but there'll be some form of redemption in this. There'll be some kind of good that that comes. We can think about that at the time, and that's good to do at the time. Just know that you're not really gonna fully see it until after the fact at some point. And then you'll be able to look back retrospectively, you know, again, again, using the book metaphor, some of the foreshadowing is a great literary device. Sometimes you don't recognize the foreshadowing that's the author has been using until after that event that was being foreshadowed takes place. And then you can say, that's why back in chapter 3, the author said such and such, because now that I'm in chapter 8, something particular has happened. So, you know, again, I think it's important for us to just acknowledge the reality about that that life is hard, and and there are moments when we can't, understand.
David Livingston [00:29:21]:
And, and in in some cases, it won't be until that last chapter. And there is a there is a way in which that's the place where faith really does have to enter in for us, to believe, to believe that the end of the story is going to be okay.
Ryan Dunn [00:29:35]:
Pastor, there's somebody listening who is probably, thinking like, I love what you're what you're talking about. And yet in my experience, I I feel so far from God, you know, whether that means that I just haven't been a part of a church in a long time or or I'm feeling some kind of, religious trauma and the baggage for that has kept me away. How are some ways that they might start to move towards a a sense of spiritual connection or spiritual renewal?
David Livingston [00:30:09]:
Yeah. So that journaling practice again is 1 of the ways that people have a lot of, depending on your personality and what really feeds you, can be 1 of the ways that you see that. Again, with the idea that you go back and then see, in retrospect what God was doing. The prayer practice we talked about before the, the breath prayer, is 1 of the things that that a lot of people find can be really helpful. There's a way in which, for a lot of you have to practice it in order to believe it. Sometimes believing is seen. And to get to the believing point, you have to do the practice. Adam Hamilton has told a story about, his, his wife and a point coming where he was kind of and from his perspective, falling out of love with her and just wasn't sure they were gonna have a future together.
David Livingston [00:31:07]:
And then his pastor at the time said, you know what? You should go buy her some flowers. And so he did. And he the the advice was every day, buy her some flowers. And he did. And he was buying her flowers not because he loved her, but he was buying her flowers because he was told you should do this. So he did. But then eventually, he found that he was buying her flowers because he loved her. The practice enabled her to, enabled him to have that experience again of of falling in love.
David Livingston [00:31:39]:
So many of the traditional Christian practices that we have, as means of grace in the West Lane tradition would fit into that category. So, you know, even if you don't feel like praying, pray. Even if you don't feel like reading the Bible, read some of the Bible. I tell people, by the way, with Bible reading, don't follow any of those read the Bible in a year plans. That's right. Where you're like then you're like to the point where, well, I'm reading the Bible because I'm supposed to read the Bible, and I gotta I gotta get through this many chapters if I'm gonna stay on my track. Oh yeah. You don't do that.
David Livingston [00:32:09]:
Read a chapter, a day or read just a section and then stop when you get that. When you get the message that God wants to convey to you that day, then stop and allow that message to sink in. Instead of forcing yourself to just read more for the sake of reading more and getting your task done. I'm a task person. So for me, like there's a part of me that's like, in fact, I have that I have a on my to do list for each day is to read read my bible. Yep. And then I read it and I can check it off. But it's important for me now to read it so that I can check it off.
David Livingston [00:32:43]:
Right? A good devotional book, there's many of them that are out there having having a discipline like that in the morning or at nighttime doing doing that practice regularly until, again, you start to do that because you want to do that, not because your to do list says, that it's to be done. Works of mercy, I mean, you you you find God when you're in service to somebody else. And I always tell folks that, for example, on a mission trip, people will come back from a mission trip and they'll say, I got more out of this than the people who I served. Yeah. And and I think that's true. And there's a biblical basis for that in Matthew's gospel too, where Jesus says, as you've done it to the least of these, you've done it to me. So you really encounter the divine, I believe, when you help another person who's in need.
Ryan Dunn [00:33:35]:
Yeah. Hopefully, that's So often as I think about my own experience, like, those kind of mountaintop experiences were those moments of, stepping into a place of need where I didn't even know, you know, what my role was there. And yet, just kind of that presence is, is what made it.
David Livingston [00:33:54]:
Yeah. And I think there's a, there's an emptiness for our faith when people like showing up at a church on Sunday morning, doesn't make you a Christian.
Ryan Dunn [00:34:03]:
Yeah. Right. For sure.
David Livingston [00:34:06]:
So faith has to be lived out, and that that develops our faith, as well. So
Ryan Dunn [00:34:13]:
this may be our final question, and I'm just kinda curious of knowing what you know now and, having read as much of the Bible as you have read, if somebody is saying, well, I got a Bible at home, a little bit dusty. If I'm gonna blow off the the cobwebs and such and and start reading, what might be a
David Livingston [00:34:33]:
good book to start with? Just if you're reading the bible. What I suggest to people, if you wanna read through the whole Bible, we'll say, what I suggest to people is that you start with, the gospel of Luke. And if you're not, if you're opening up a bible for the first time, if you open it up to the middle, it's gonna be Psalms. And then if you open it up to the middle again, it'll be 1 of the gospels. Flip to Luke, which is gospel number 3. The 4th gospel is John skip John, and then read to acts. And the reason for that is because the same author wrote both. So you can, you can read all of that.
David Livingston [00:35:13]:
Luke and acts as 1 narrative. And then go back to read Matthew, Mark, and John, the rest of the new Testament, and then go back to read the whole Bible from start to finish.
Ryan Dunn [00:35:25]:
So I
David Livingston [00:35:26]:
always suggest it that way because you've got, the main character is Jesus, but he doesn't show up until 2 thirds of the way through. Yeah. You just read from start to finish. So I think It's a
Ryan Dunn [00:35:36]:
lot of prologue. Yeah.
David Livingston [00:35:37]:
Yeah. That's right. That's how I suggest people start to read the Bible. And again, just with the understanding that you can take you can take your lifetime to read through it. I don't care. Don't don't do it in a month. Don't do it in a year. I mean, if you like really get into it, that's okay.
David Livingston [00:35:54]:
But don't do it in in a set period of time. Take your time with
Ryan Dunn [00:35:59]:
it. No.
David Livingston [00:36:00]:
I wanna go back to your can I can I go back to 1 more thing, though?
Ryan Dunn [00:36:03]:
Absolutely.
David Livingston [00:36:05]:
Your, your last question, this may not address it exactly, but I think 1 of the things that's so important is as we think about our relationship with God, I find a lot of people who, sometimes I'll say this in worship. We don't really need to talk that much about our shortcomings. In my experience, we don't really need to talk that much about the things that we've done that are bad because we're I'm self aware. I know I know most of the places where I've screwed up. You probably, Ryan, have the same thing yourself. Right?
Ryan Dunn [00:36:40]:
So Yeah. And sometimes have a tendency to dwell on that too.
David Livingston [00:36:44]:
Absolutely. Yeah. We we all know that we fall short of what god would want. We many of us have a hard time forgiving ourselves for those. And so I I think sometimes about, the the people who might have an experience were like, I hear the pastor talking about god is love, and that's for other people because the pastor doesn't know what I've done. Yeah. And, for me, 1 of the most important stories that my favorite chapter on the book is the last chapter, which is about forgiving ourselves. And it walks through the story of Peter and John's gospel.
David Livingston [00:37:23]:
And I I won't share too much of it because I want people to read it for themselves and to have the the discovery themselves. But, you know, we think about Judas as sort of the bad guy of the gospels, and he is. But Peter is not all that much better. I mean, Peter's Peter's a mess. In the gospel of John, Peter also with Jesus comes around full circle. And you you cannot if you're reading the gospel of John for all it's worth, you cannot finish reading it and say, okay. God God, I've done too many bad things for God to love me. Peter's story kind of frames the gospel with a story of redemption that, a lot of us miss.
David Livingston [00:38:10]:
And so whoever you are, whatever you've done, whatever you will plan on me on doing, I believe the Bible when it says nothing can separate us from the love of God through Jesus Christ, our Lord. I think for me, that's just a fundamental truth that, is really important for all of us to remember. Nothing can separate us from the love of God through Jesus Christ.
Ryan Dunn [00:38:36]:
Amen. Amen. You know how to bring the plane in for a landing. Thank you so much.
David Livingston [00:38:42]:
You're welcome. It's great to talk with you, Ryan. Likewise. Appreciate your time. Absolutely.
Ryan Dunn [00:38:47]:
Alright. Listener, thank you for joining us on this episode of Compass alongside Reverend David Livingston. I wanna thank the team that helps make Compass possible. Lane Denson does the technical development. Patty Dela Bovi takes care of marketing. There's a whole team of people at United Methodist communications who help resource and share the news around compass. So really thanks to all. And that's it for this week.
Ryan Dunn [00:39:12]:
We'll be back with a new episode in 2 weeks time. So I will chat at you then in the meantime, peace.
