Summarizing Faith and Theology with Bruce Reyes-Chow on Compass: Finding spirituality in the everyday. Bruce shares the importance of distilling and articulating beliefs in simple, digestible formats. Discover his innovative concept of a "faith montage" and how it serves as a primer on progressive Christianity to guide individuals through faith deconstruction and reconstruction.
Join Ryan Dunn and Bruce Reyes-Chow as they reflect on the future of the church, diversity, inclusivity, and Christianity's portrayal in media. This episode offers rich insights into condensing complex theological ideas and crafting a narrative that resonates with both believers and those curious about faith.
Bruce Reyes-Chow is an influential author, speaker, parent, consultant, coach, podcaster, and pastor. His latest book, "Everything Good About God is True," encapsulates beliefs about God through the lens of lived experiences. In this episode, he discusses his approach to writing, crowd-sourcing feedback, and addressing both practical and theological questions. Bruce's work aspires to be a conversation starter in churches, giving depth and clarity to longtime churchgoers and spiritual seekers alike.
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Episode Notes:
Check out more from Bruce at reyes-chow.com
In this episode:
(00:00) Exploring the evolving future of the church.
(05:04) Challenge the dominant Christian cultural narrative responsibly.
(08:29) Distilling beliefs into simple, understandable messages is essential.
(09:29) God loves you, no need for more.
(13:24) Reflecting on writing project, seeking input for relevance.
(16:37) A cautious approach to the definitive article.
(18:58) Connecting to God through Jesus, death & resurrection.
(24:26) Treat everyone as complex child of God.
(27:32) Our shared human value.
(30:26) Committed to Jesus, bodily resurrection, healing world.
(33:06) Changed denominational stance on LGBTQI inclusion, progress.
(36:22) Transitioning from pastor to full-time writer and speaker.
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This episode posted on July 24, 2024
Episode Transcript:
Ryan Dunn [00:00:01]:
Welcome to Compass, finding spirituality in the everyday. My name is Ryan Dunn. I am the host of Compass and we're back. If you've been anticipating this episode in real time, you'll notice that we're late in releasing channels. That should now be resolved. So you can resume consuming pod, The Compass podcast on your podcast listening or viewing platform of choice. In this episode, I got to speak with Bruce Reyes Chow, who is an influential voice in progressive Christianity. We discussed his newfound interest in houseplants.
Ryan Dunn [00:00:45]:
Just kidding. We did. But we also really got into the evolving future of the church, advocating for greater diversity, inclusivity, and a more nuanced portrayal of Christianity in the media, which is timely as we're releasing this episode in the course of an American election season that contains a lot of dialogue around the American witness of Christianity and explicitly Christian nationalism. Bruce shares his vision for distilling complex theological concepts into accessible and impactful faith montages, which offer a progressive entry point for those curious about the church. And there's so much more. Bruce is really a fun person to speak with. I think that you'll enjoy this listen. If you enjoy listening to compass on the regular, leave a rating and or review.
Ryan Dunn [00:01:40]:
It helps us get seen, and it draws more interesting guests to the podcast. So thank you so much for doing that. Bruce Reyes Chow, a little bit about him. He's an author, speaker, parent, consultant, coach, podcaster, and pastor. He speaks and writes on issues of faith, technology, race, parenting and church culture. His most recent book is called Everything Good About God is True. And the book helps us address not just what we don't believe, which is easy to express for a lot of us, but it also addresses how our lived experiences help refine that which we do truly believe about God in faith. So that sounds really cool.
Ryan Dunn [00:02:25]:
Let's meet Bruce Reyes Chow on the Compass podcast. Bruce Reyes Chow, thank you so much for joining us. How goes it with your soul today?
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:02:37]:
Oh, it is good. If if COVID wasn't hanging out in my household, it'd be even better. So I will make it through without coughing up a lot. But overall, life is good. It is nice and toasty out here whenever this is posting out. We're in that heat wave in California, and it is, but I'm in a nice cool office. My I'm surround I've been on the road a lot surrounded by my familiar plants and my well, this is one of my pandemic hangovers as I got into houseplants and propagating houseplants. So there you go.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:03:08]:
So life is good.
Ryan Dunn [00:03:09]:
Are those the same plants that you got back in 2020? Because they look like they're fantastic.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:03:14]:
A couple of them are are babies. Like, they Yeah. I've really gotten into I think the answer to the question, can you have too many plants, is no. So I just snip and I and one of the things that I do when people come over to visit when we are able to do that is I, invite people to walk through 2 of our rooms and take any potted plant home that they want.
Ryan Dunn [00:03:37]:
Oh. Because That's so sweet of you.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:03:39]:
We just have a bunch of them and my wife is always like, do we need to buy more plants? I'm like no because I can propagate them now anyway there you go. Alright. What do you need to know about? Yeah. It's a podcast today.
Ryan Dunn [00:03:52]:
That's right. So so do you find that, what is the proper watering amount and alright. So we've we've rehashed the, the year 2020. In your book, you address readers in the possible year of 2050. I would love to know, like, what do you think the church might look like in the year 2050?
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:04:13]:
Oh, yeah. Oh, gosh. I mean, again, if I if I could really predict that, you know. So here's what I I would say is that, for those who do read the book, I am not one that, is an anti denominational or anti association or any of those. I just I help to explain why those exist. And usually it's because how we make decisions and govern ourselves. And I actually think there is a lovely mix of the different ways that that people are drawn to making decisions in our setting. Like, how do you discern the mind of Christ and the will of God together? And what does that look like? Is it a group of a smaller group of people that help decide? Is it a larger group? So what I hope the church looks like in terms of just structurally is that there are a lot of versions of of how people are engaged in church in the future that help to give breadth and depth and texture to how we do church.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:05:04]:
Now what we believe, what I hope, I'm just gonna say here's what I hope. I hope that when journalists, pundits, they wanna say the church. We have forced them to give more descriptors than that because right now, the narrative that holds our attention and gets the play is a very white conservative Christian nationalist version of the gospel. And when somebody says that's the church, it gets very little pushback other than those of us who are like, but that's not the only church and and that just doesn't you know, it's like, but us, I wanna force those who are driving cultural narratives to have to think about different versions of Christianity. And that's that's is where it's for me, we we have to help our help the the culture get there. So I'm just gonna pretend that we've done a great job. And in 2050, when CNN says the church, they have to say the church, the part of the church that dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, to help people delineate that we're not all just this as the default. So that's I don't know how much money I'd bet on it, but that's my hope.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:06:12]:
Right. So there you go.
Ryan Dunn [00:06:13]:
Well, I had this, this question all lined up for you that I was particularly proud of, and it had to do with adages and and kind of, distilling theology into into simplistic sayings. And and then I realized, like, oh, well, you already kinda came up for it. It came up with it for us and then the name of your book about is Everything Good About God is True. But when I ask the question anyway, even though that might be an answer to it, in saying that as you talked about the Christian nationalist aspect of of the church or even the fundamentalist aspect of the church, like, part of their success, part of the reason why they get the microphone so much is that their message can be pretty simple sometimes. Their adages, like, well, the the Bible says it or God said it. I believe it. That settles it. Besides maybe everything good about God is true, are there some similar adages that might describe this other side of the church?
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:07:15]:
Yeah. I mean, I think part of why again, you know, huge generalizations we're speaking of. But why that kind of, you know, conservative ish version is because they have convinced us that there is security in specificity and and that if you can just own these 10 things, then all will be right in the world and with God. And
Ryan Dunn [00:07:40]:
Mhmm.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:07:41]:
That never fit well with me. I mean, I didn't grow up in that. I didn't really wasn't even adjacent to it. I grew up with its expansive nature of God and that there was great security in knowing that God was this expansive place and that God could handle me in all the versions that I am. I mean, I come out of a small urban church in Stockton, California. All kinds of trouble in life and community. And it was a place where we were reminded that God can handle whatever we bring. And I think that has always stuck with me is that, you know, there there there are some folks that leave all that stuff behind when you come into this holy space.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:08:18]:
And I'm like, actually, no. No. No. No. Bring it all in. We hold it together. Right? Bring everything in. Bring everything to the table because God's love is big enough to hold all of it.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:08:29]:
And so I think those figuring out how we distill without, you know, oversimplifying, you know, what it means for God to be expansive. Like and this is why the leadership, we have gotten lazy that we want to overexplain everything, and we don't know how to distill what we believe into digestible because we look down in some ways. Right? We look down on that. And I'm like, well, no. We gotta be able to like, if you can't summarize your sermon in a in a in a x length thing, people aren't gonna get it. Like, you get all that other stuff is great, but if I can't preach a sermon and then somebody walks away and I'm like, just in a couple of sentences, what was that about? And if I haven't been able to communicate something, not as if everybody gets what I'm trying to communicate every time, but they need to be able I need to be able to so I'm always focusing on what's that 2 or 3 sentence, one sentence thing that I'm trying to get across and all this stuff, other kind of bounces. So, you know, I look at things like you are enough. Yeah.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:09:29]:
You God loves you and you are enough. Right? Yeah. It goes against that idea that you need to be more for God when I think that that's a that's a you're a transactional theology. If you are more than God will do this. Whereas I'm like, well, God loves me and tells me that no matter who I am, I am enough. And out of that love, then I'm trying to be even better. Right? So, there's lots of those kinds of things. And I, and in the in the book, this montage that I go through, there's lots of in there that I think will fit that same need for people to have something that's bite sized, but I hope more meaningful.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:10:05]:
So yeah. So there's, like, quite a few of them in there.
Ryan Dunn [00:10:07]:
Yeah. Well, let's talk about that montage a little bit. You Yeah. You endorse kinda creating a faith montage. So what does that concept really entail?
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:10:17]:
Well, I mean, I wish it was deeper than I'm a Gen Xer and every Gen X movie had some kind of montage in it. I mean, that's that's really what at the core, that's really
Ryan Dunn [00:10:28]:
what it was. I gotta know then because they always have a soundtrack too. Like, what what's the soundtrack of your
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:10:33]:
Well, see, it's interesting. So mine would be kind of like eighties R and B kind of thing where Okay. In other times, it's gonna be Poppy, like, Dexy's Midnight Runners. That kind of thing. Like, that'll be, so but, you know, but for me, montages are great because you knew it was leading you somewhere, but you just got bits and pieces of it getting you to the point and it sped the movie along. And that's kind of how I see this. I could have certainly called it a faith statement, but I was like, yawn. Like, that's something that we all have and there's
Ryan Dunn [00:11:04]:
nothing Sounds very
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:11:05]:
ugly about that. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, you know, for those who are reading it, who kinda come out of the church, faith statements often can be checklists to what are you supposed to believe in order for us to be included in this. And I think I did I wanted to get away from that as well. And I don't and at Faith Journey is didn't wasn't didn't have enough gravitas to me. So that I landed on Faith Montage as a way that you could actually dip into it at any point, but it does help you kind of start to end think about this, the fullness. I mean, the book itself is an audacious, super arrogant project.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:11:39]:
Right? They asked me to write a book on Christianity And I'm like, well, the whole thing? Like all of it? Like, yeah.
Ryan Dunn [00:11:46]:
Like, what? Can you see
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:11:48]:
the whole thing? Yeah. And I'm like, sure. That's so, you know, I had written this montage and thought it could be something and we had begun to navigate and like, it it was originally gonna be a memoir, more of a spiritual memoir. And those are not that if you're, unless you're famous, those don't really work very well. And they wanted something that had more longevity, which I really appreciated. And so they're like, no, no, no. Let's frame this as a primer on progressive Christianity. And then that way it is the what's kind of the what's next as you are reaching a healthy point of deconstruction.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:12:22]:
Like, if there is still a lot of trauma involved in your deconstruction, you may not be open to this quite yet, but if you're like, okay, I'm still curious about the church. There's still something here. This is the entry point into that or an invitation into one way to think about it. So that's kind of the montage for me. Gives it gave me a little more freedom to be a little bit more creative. I I yeah. I I loved writing it. I love reading it Actually, I love reading my own stuff.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:12:50]:
That's not an arrogance. I think it's more of a a nod to if you're not transformed by your own work, then nobody else will be. And so I I still believe greatly what I've written and, I love watching how other people are using it and liturgy and other stuff. But, yeah. So the montage, I mean, again, it's not much deeper than that's what I grew up with in the movies, But Yeah. It does it does fit a purpose.
Ryan Dunn [00:13:18]:
Yeah. Well, I love that imagery of it. Was there a process that you used to develop your own montage?
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:13:24]:
Yeah. I so I did. I I the first round, I just wrote, like and then, as I started to think about, okay, this could be a project of some kind. I don't know what exactly it was gonna be, probably a book, but I started to think about what what was missing. And so I actually, for those that aren't connected with me online, I'm super over visible about everything I do depending on your context. And so I'm like, okay, here I'm writing this thing, what's missing? Like what needs to be answered? And so I shared it out ahead of time and people kind of said, well, this they and I'm like, I don't you can like or not like parts, which is fine. But are there things that if you were handing this to somebody who was curious about faith, even for the first time, what do you wanna make sure that gets touched upon? Like and not just like these big theological questions, but, I was a church planter. I started a church in San Francisco a 1000000 years ago and people didn't really care about the big theological things.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:14:22]:
Like, why are there so many different kinds of churches? Like, that was a core question. Why do we baptize people in so many different ways? Like, why and so I try to do that and get it all the way to the ground level as well as infusing in when we talk about God's plan, that can be really dangerous, but here's a way to think about it that is more in line with the rest of our theological space. So, yeah. So I I I did
Ryan Dunn [00:14:48]:
it individually. I crowd sourced
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:14:48]:
a little bit, which is always individually. I crowd sourced a little bit, which has always been my vibe is, here is something I'm offering. Help me figure out and make this better. And then here's where we go together. And I'm I generally am pretty good about separating people's opinion and likes and dislikes versus content that could help be better. So, yeah. So that's what I did. I just shared it out, And people are always interested in talking about a theology that would, help them in their work, for sure.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:15:22]:
I mean, it's really interesting though. I had colleagues read this book ahead of time, as we were going through some review times and, and one person said to me, oh, I could've wrote that book. And I was like, but you didn't. So but it's it's a because it's a conglomeration of a lot of people's thinking. So a lot of people won't find a lot much surprising, but I think it will be an accessible, clearer version of what many of us have believed for a long time.
Ryan Dunn [00:15:53]:
Yeah. Well, maybe your colleague was expressing maybe not sort of the surety that he or she could have written the book, but that almost that they wished they had written the book. I mean Oh, yeah.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:16:03]:
Totally. No. It's a it was a good friend. It was Yeah. Yeah. Good friend of mine. A good friend of mine is, like, oh, I can write that. I'm like, yeah.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:16:09]:
But you didn't. So just read it and let me know what you think.
Ryan Dunn [00:16:12]:
Something that resonates with us. It oftentimes I I find is something that, gives words to something that I feel but hadn't been able to express before. And Yeah. And it sounds like you're really trying to invest in doing that for a lot of people. Like, when they give you this mandate to, okay, you write a manifesto for progressive Christianity, like, it's kinda kinda yeah. Kinda boiling down to that, though. Isn't it? Like, giving
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:16:37]:
I mean, it it really it it really is. And I'm very I'm very cautious as folks read this, that the definitive article I use all the time is a, not the. And so that it is a version. It is, you know, it's it's a version of the gospel as opposed to the version. Like it what I hope it does is it's it is it gives a good baseline from which people can spring off into their own thinking about things. And I do a whole section on we are all theologians at the beginning to kind of give permission and challenge all of us to have these conversations about God. And if that's something folks are curious about, then here's a way to begin to prime the pump around that. Not just like, well, what do you think about God? Well, it's not really helpful if you've never really had to think about that before or the only version you have is something that you are rejecting right now.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:17:27]:
Like, well, here's another way to think about it. And and what I've heard is that it's pretty accessible, and it does give some language to some things that people have been thinking. So, yeah. That's that's exactly what I'm trying to do.
Ryan Dunn [00:17:40]:
Yeah. One of the aspects that you wrote about that resonated with me is the idea that we we struggle to articulate what it is that we do believe. We don't have that same struggle often articulating what we don't believe. So Yeah. And and I can think about it this way. A term like salvation, like, I can I can tell you what I don't believe about salvation? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Ryan Dunn [00:18:03]:
What I kinda rail against when we use that word, but it it becomes a little bit tougher to express the the proactive or, positively aligned aspects of what I do. So how how did this process of writing this book help you to articulate some of the things that you do believe?
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:18:24]:
Well, I will say that it helped me really refine what I believe. I mean, it it's one of those things that again that that when you said before, it's giving words to people. I think folks are like, ah, yes. That's yes. This is what I'm thinking. Because we fall back onto, like, just trite phrases and language in our liturgy, in our in our in our hymns. And we just buy into these things. Like a great way that I think about salvation, right, is we always think about it as the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:18:58]:
And I was like, actually, I think it's the life, death and resurrection. Like it is we we are connected to God through the living Jesus, but all of our theological language is always death and resurrection as opposed to, well, let's broaden that out and expand that out. I'm not getting rid of the death or the resurrection. What I'm talking about is it's fuller than that, And that makes more sense to people around like, oh, I'm experiencing this connection to God through the fullness of who Jesus is. And so forcing me to articulate and that what really forced me to do is when you have to do all this in 40,000 words, you really have to choose words well. Like I my editor was amazing and gentle when she needed to be and also just challenging when it was important around. Okay. So what do you really like? We're we're stripping this down.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:19:53]:
Give me the 4 sentences. What does baptism mean? I'm like, Oh my God, 4 sentences. Right? But we have to do that. And I think that the challenge for some of us who I think, land in this space is we over explain everything. And we use a lot of words when we don't need to, and we almost use our, our, our words as a crutch sometimes. And we, then we spin ourselves into confusing for people. When I think, you know, if we're talking to people who are new or reintroducing themselves to this version, we have to be pretty clear. And so I think everybody needs to work on that.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:20:35]:
And that's what that's one of the hopes is that you like so then what do you think about salvation? You have to practice that. Like that's it's it's not as if I was like, oh, yeah. Salvation in 4 4 sentences. It was more like, okay. Here's my the first version was like 70,000 words or something. I don't know what it was. We had to trim it all the way back. Wow.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:20:52]:
Because I wanted everybody to know every nuance about the 7 versions of atonement that are out there. And she's like, we can't do that. You gotta no. Name these other things. Which are the problematic ones? Why? And then where do you land? Right? And we should all try to go through those process together and figure out what what do we really believe so that can articulate to people who are who are curious about it.
Ryan Dunn [00:21:18]:
Well, how might your book help individuals then articulate
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:21:22]:
Mhmm.
Ryan Dunn [00:21:22]:
What it is that they believe? Is it the process of building the montage? Or
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:21:34]:
is, you know, pastors in some ways, because most of my colleague, I could have done this. That's not really for them. I always tell them like, well, that's this isn't really for you. I may write a book for ministers later, but this one is for the peep what I hope it's like, you're like, oh, yeah. This is something that I can give to people to to spark conversation. There's about 6 churches that used it for their summer series. Right? They broke it down and used it. It's an easy thing if you need programming.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:22:03]:
Like, just hand them this and you block
Ryan Dunn [00:22:05]:
it out.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:22:06]:
For others who are reading it, say you're, just a person in the pew as they say. What I've heard is that it gives a little more texture to things that they've been saying out loud and singing about for a long time, but didn't really know what it meant. Mhmm. And it's they've been in the church too long to ask. Right? That awkward moment where you're like, I you know, I've been hanging out with you for a few months, but I still don't know your name, and now it's too late for me to ask what your name is. There has been a lot of that. That's kind of unexpected. I actually like that there's been they're like, oh, okay.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:22:45]:
So that's that's what I've been thinking this might mean, but we don't really, you know, we talk about God's plan all the time. And, you know, and then we sing about it and all these things. Anyway, so that Yeah. And then the last group are folks that are just curious about faith. So those are on that post deconstruction space. Those who have been dabbling have a cultural, maybe obligatory connection to church, but still something draws it to draws them to church and spirituality. And this has been a way for folks to get a little more meat on what they've been experiencing. So that those are kind of how people are doing.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:23:26]:
And the questions at the back, you know, are both group and individuals. So there's a group pick a question each time. I know some of the prayers are being used in places just so that folks can it's, what I try to do is weave all the elements of what living faith may be. So individual, group, prayer, and and I hope the stories are inviting. They they will hopefully age well, and give, like, kind of this fullness of how we all experience faith throughout our life.
Ryan Dunn [00:23:56]:
You mentioned us having a a need to simplify what it is that, that we think about and even how we express it. But you also note that, it's possible that God created human beings to be really complex. So Mhmm. How does recognizing our complexity and that god created us in this kind of complex range of of human experience, how does that change the way that we might approach faith?
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:24:26]:
I I mean, I think there's lots of ways, but my my primary thing these days has been, we either believe that everybody is a com, you know, is a complex created, you know, child of God or we don't. And then does that matter how we treat everyone? So even our deepest enemies, right? We're told clearly in scripture, there's lots of things that are easier to follow, right? Feed those who are hungry, clothe those who are naked. We might even visit people who incarcerated, give drink, you know, all those things that those are great and easy, but, bless your enemy and do not curse them. We are not good at that. And that goes both ways. And I think that by truly believing that even our worst enemy is created and complex, we have to allow that to change how we behave. Now that doesn't mean we agree or we affirm actions or beliefs or any of that. It just means that how we respond to that person can't diminish their humanity.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:25:35]:
And I think that's that's what the world wants. You know, war and violence feeds on dehumanization. Mhmm. And if we can make small and large steps in how we interact with with each other online or what we say about those we disagree with in in conversation, then, we are we are saying to evil basically not today. Like you're not gonna win today. And I think that that's really hard in these political times, but really necessary. I mean, I I just think that the more we dehumanize other people, the more we are not gonna find any common space. And we can't do it as a transactional thing.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:26:21]:
Right? We can't, Well, they don't do it to us. Well, they don't do they don't humanize us. So why would I humanize them? Like, well, I don't humanize another person just so it gets me something. I do that because God has said to me, I see you as this complex person. In response to that, you should see all of, you know, my creation as such. And that is hard and excruciating. And it's it's sometimes more fun to just give it right back.
Ryan Dunn [00:26:47]:
Yeah.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:26:48]:
But I think it only lasts for a moment, and then we realize we're not that's not a helpful people to be.
Ryan Dunn [00:26:55]:
So are are there practices that you use to kinda check yourself,
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:27:01]:
or to
Ryan Dunn [00:27:01]:
keep you
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:27:01]:
grounded in looking at people? I'm super annoying. I'm super annoying to others and myself. So like if somebody says they're just they're a pile of whatever. I'm like, are they actually a pile of that, or are they just doing things that are that?
Ryan Dunn [00:27:18]:
Mhmm.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:27:19]:
I mean,
Ryan Dunn [00:27:20]:
Yeah.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:27:20]:
How do we separate right?
Ryan Dunn [00:27:22]:
Yes. I see that as being annoying.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:27:24]:
Right? Yeah. There you go. My wife is particularly excited. Like, oh, they're they're trash. I'm like, well, are they?
Ryan Dunn [00:27:31]:
Like, is anybody
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:27:32]:
trash? I mean, that's what I say about black and brown bodies in the US. Right? We have decided that they can be disposed of and made indivisible in our incarcerals our carceral system. I don't think that's true. We wouldn't want anybody to think that. And I'm not so I'm not gonna reciprocate that to other people. Now, do they need to be do people need to be held accountable for the action? Yes. But at their very core being, they are not trash. Right? And so I really watch myself and watch my language, watch what I pass on online, watch what I'm gonna forward or what I'm gonna share because I don't wanna add to this idea that we can just diminish somebody else's humanity without even thinking about it.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:28:17]:
And I think that that is too easy. So I'm I am very disciplined about thinking about everything that I share or say, the whether it it it it diminishes our humanity. And I still wanna challenge, like, I'm not a big fan of former president Trump. I'm not a huge fan of current president Biden either, but I'm not going to fall into ableism and ageism and all those things. Right? I'm gonna challenge thoughts, beliefs, but not ability, age, you know, those kinds of things. And and that's hard to do because it's so easy. It's just sitting right there. And I but I think that's that's an easy lazy way out.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:28:55]:
And I think we're called to something better.
Ryan Dunn [00:28:57]:
Yeah. Well, and it's easy to do, especially when the snowball of of public opinion is kinda cascading down that way. Right?
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:29:03]:
Oh, yeah. Yep. Yep.
Ryan Dunn [00:29:04]:
As we're recording this, it kinda is.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:29:06]:
But Yep. Exactly.
Ryan Dunn [00:29:08]:
What, you mentioned that that you learned something in in reading your own writing. How was the the process of putting this thing together? A learning expedition for you, or how are you transformed by it?
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:29:22]:
Oh. I am fully committed to my faith. Like I I just, and people will say but, you know, isn't well then is it the only way? And I'm like, no. I clearly I say in the book, Jesus is not the only way to experience God and the divine. And I'm very clear with that. And like what about when it says And I'm like, okay, we're not getting into scripture wars because, those are exhausting to me and useless. But I'm like, I can live with attention. And I actually think that sometimes scripture is wrong.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:29:53]:
So there you go. And so, you know, when when somebody says to me, well, Jesus says, only way through God is through me. I'm like, I can fully say that for myself. That is my only way to God. Is that for everybody? No. There's just too much in the world that says to me that's not the only way. The people have connected to God in whatever form God is taking in many, many ways. And so, you know, there there's all the mental gymnastics that others have done to talk about people who've never had an opportunity to experience Jesus and the the need to to evangelize and be missionaries and all that kind of stuff.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:30:26]:
I just don't fall into that. So but I have I like, I'm like, yeah. I am committed to this adventure with Jesus. And I would say that one of the things that I think surprises people in there is I'm still committed to the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ because it is so outrageous. And I I just think looking at the world, we play our part and we we respond to the invitations that God gives us to be part of healing and hope in the world, but there's got to be something more that's gonna make this place better or is making it better in places I don't know. Because if humans could do it, I think we would, and we just don't have the capacity, the will, whatever it is to do it. And so I think there has to be something as unimaginable and outrageous as a body coming back to life. And I'm, you know, I don't try to explain it away.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:31:18]:
I don't try to I'm not one of those that it does like, he will say it didn't have to happen for it to be true. I just like, I actually think it's true because it happened. And so here we go. And what do we do with that? And again, people come at that in different ways, but that's where I land in in the book. And ever so, kind of been reinforced in that as as I wrote this. And my editor, Valerie, just helped me to really think through what are you trying to say, a lot and and strip away my I think many of our tendencies to to fill in spaces that don't need to be there and be clearer about what we believe. And I think that was really helpful for me. Well, I appreciate you bringing
Ryan Dunn [00:32:04]:
up the resurrection because it moves us from, something that we think about or ideologize into something that's in flesh. Right?
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:32:12]:
Yep.
Ryan Dunn [00:32:13]:
For us as as Christians, like, the the ultimate idea is, like, here is faith in flesh, and and it's you know, god's love is expressed in this physical resurrection. So how do you see the church in this day and age kind of in a gospel that is related to love and kindness and justice?
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:32:36]:
Oh, that's a wheelhouse question for you as a Methodist, me as a Presbyterian. Right? I mean, you know, we we were talking a little bit before that, you know, the Presbyterian Church USA of of my my denomination, we are a very different church than we were 10 years ago, 15 years ago. I mean, when I was I held an office in our denomination, that's kind of you do you have a general secretary? I can't remember what's the hierarchy of something. Whenever you're
Ryan Dunn [00:33:02]:
We have bishops. Yep.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:33:04]:
Bishops. Okay. So you're bishops. Right? So The
Ryan Dunn [00:33:05]:
council of bishops.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:33:06]:
So I held I held the same I held the highest office in our denomination, And we were not at that point ordaining LGBTQI people. Our marriage was still between 1 man and 1 woman. There were a variety of things. And at our last general assembly, we just passed a whole thing that is going to be approved that includes, sexual orientation, transgender in our constitution. That, I mean, this is talk about, you know, resurrection people. Like, we we were in a place where we were, you know, we were we were death dealing in many ways by what we were saying theologically, and we are now saying, no. These are things that give us life and depth and texture to who we believe God's people are. We still have a long way to go in living those out day to day.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:33:55]:
But as a church, like, every time something pops up from the PCUSA on Instagram or something and it's like, day of trans visibility. And I'm like, this is how did it my church is
Ryan Dunn [00:34:06]:
How did we get here? Yeah.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:34:08]:
What what happened? I'm like I'm just like before there was hemming and hawing whether you put something, you know, about anything. And they have to go practically through legal before you could put something. And now there's this stuff coming on. I'm like, oh my goodness. This is amazing. Now we just have to figure out how do we share that. We're terrible at sharing what we believe. I I don't know if the methods are any better, but but it's strange.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:34:33]:
We're terrible at it. We have rested on our laurels. You know, you'll find us if you want us. And I'm like, oh my goodness. We have this great kind of message right now. And it and it's not just about growth, but it's about impact in people's lives Mhmm. Creating belonging. I mean, we're just doing some amazing stuff.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:34:52]:
And so I I feel like we as a denomination and others are all moving. Now there are some that are moving in another direction and doubling down on some of that exclusion, but we're not. And I'm like, I am overjoyed with where we're headed as a church and where where you all are headed and and others have been heading. It's it's a beautiful, welcoming, expansive, you know, expression of of Jesus in the world. And I I just feel like there's so many people that that faith has been dead. We have tried to say no. It's it's living and again, not perfect, but there is some good life coming out of some of these places now.
Ryan Dunn [00:35:31]:
But you've just come off of several weeks on the road. The book has just come out. So you may answer this question just being like, I'm just gonna rest. But what are you dreaming about doing next?
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:35:40]:
Yeah. Well, actually, it's a really good question, for me because I have been in this I mean, for Gen Xer to say, I've been in this anxious time. I mean, what what Gen Xer is not ever always. But, I I've been in full time ministry for a long time. I've I've been ordained in the PCUSA for almost 30 years now. And I've always had my foot in the congregation or in an organization and I've done the writing and speaking kind of on the side. And I think sometimes that's there's great joy in that been for a long time, but I think sometimes when you're splitting yourself so much, you don't really get to dive into things. It's almost an excuse not to work on 1 to really kind of figure out.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:36:22]:
So I've actually recently decided that I'm gonna be full time writing and I'm no longer gonna be a pastor, which I I gave up the identity as a pastor defining me a long time ago, but it is still a little weird that for at least the next probably 5 years, I'm not dancing with a congregation or an organist judicatory or anything in that role as pastor. And I'm gonna be a writer and speaker full time, which I still have to get used to doing that without rolling on my own eyes. Because it does feel like when people used to sound like, oh, must be nice. You're just writing and Yeah. But, you know, I've had I have a I have a great person who's helping me kinda get over myself and, really dive into that and work on the craft. Think about what is missing kind of in the in the world right now in this context, what can I offer? And so I'm gonna be writing and speaking and, and all that for the foreseeable future. I don't I am still super brand new. Like I haven't even figured out what that looks like.
Bruce Reyes-Chow [00:37:22]:
I have I have a very rough 5 year plan about things I like to do and then I gotta fill in the okay. Those are big ideas. What's the first step? Gotcha. So that's what I'm doing. I'm I'm very excited about it though. I'm I'm very excited about it.
Ryan Dunn [00:37:37]:
Cool. Well, we appreciate you joining us today and, well, sharing so much about your experience and also what you're looking forward to. So, when you do get out that next book, let's talk again. Yeah. Anytime. Anytime. Fun times for sure. Do you want the fun to continue? Well, then check out another episode of the country's podcast.
Ryan Dunn [00:38:00]:
I think episode number 133 with John Pavlovitz would be a really good companion piece to this episode. Also episode 126 with Heather Gilad, that's called church rethought would match well with this episode too. It has a smooth finish that pairs well with the okey overtones of this course. I'll stop. Hey, while you're listening or right now, leave a rating and or a review. Those reviews help us connect with future guests. So it's an important part of us being able to deliver meaningful stories and content for you. The Compass Cup podcast is brought to you by United Methodist Communications.
Ryan Dunn [00:38:37]:
And that's all for this episode. We're gonna be back with a new episode in 2 weeks. So I look forward to chatting at you then. In the meantime, peace.
