Church rethought with Heather Jallad: Compass episode 126

We’re talking with Rev. Heather Jallad about the creative, fun and innovative ways that church is coming together and meeting the world. It’s an invitation to Rethink Church. This episode of Compass dives into new expressions of church like Dinner Church and Messy Church. It’s all inspiring… and it gets us thinking about how we, individually might both connect with spiritual community and how we might become involved in leading the church into new areas of witness.

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Episode notes

Rev. Heather Jallad serves as the Associate Director of Training for Fresh Expressions NA, Community Engagement Pastor at Cannon UMC in Snellville, Georgia, and as a Specialist for the North Georgia Annual Conference. She pioneered the Common Ground Network, a network of fresh church expressions and The Douglasville Dinner Church in Douglasville, GA and a collaborative Dinner Church in Grayson, GA.

Check out the Fresh Expressions Podcast for more great ideas on rethinking church.

Some of the episodes Heather mentioned in this episode:

In this episode:

(00:00) Reverend Heather Jallad's inspiring work on church.
(04:24) Introduced to dinner church, partnered with school.
(08:19) Fresh expression emphasizes mutuality and shared meals.
(11:21) Adapting church to fit modern schedules and lifestyles.
(14:56) Church planters stumbled onto non-traditional methods.
(24:34) Pandemic of loneliness, longing for community meals.
(30:29) Traditional roles expanded to engage new members.
(32:39) Promoting house churches for effective discipleship.
(35:37) Recognition of Pioneers in the church community.
(45:18) Geeky church models dive complete.

Compass is a production of United Methodist Communications.

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This episode posted on January 24, 2024

Episode Transcript:

Ryan Dunn:
Welcome back to the Compass podcast where we connect the divine to the everyday. My name is Ryan Dunn. I'm ready to geek out on church in this episode. We're talking with reverend Heather Jallade about the creative, fun, and innovative ways the church is coming together other and meeting the world. It's an invitation to rethink church. And as somebody who works with an entity called Rethink Church, I'm pretty excited about this topic. So there's a lot to process in this episode about fresh expressions of church and church innovations. And we're gonna hear about new expressions of church, like dinner church and messy church.

Ryan Dunn:
It's all inspiring, and it gets us thinking about how we, individually, might both connect with spiritual community, and dare I say, how we might become involved in leading the church into new areas of witness. Reverend Heather Gillad serves as the associate director of training for Fresh expressions. She serves as community engagement pastor at Cannon UMC in Snellville, Georgia and as a specialist for the North Georgia annual conference. She pioneered the Common Ground Network, which is a network of fresh church expressions, and the Douglassville Dinner Church in Douglassville, Georgia, as well as collaborative dinner church in Grayson, Georgia. It's all pretty cool stuff. So let's geek out on fresh expressions of church here on The Compass Podcast. Doctor Heather Jalaad, thank you so much for joining us on the Compass podcast. Yeah.

Ryan Dunn:
Well, I'm excited to nerd out over the ways that ministry is happening. So, you know, in In the course of a podcast, sometimes you do some topics that you know are good for your audience, but aren't necessarily things that that you personally find all that engaging. This is not one of those topics. Like, we're gonna talk about the future of church and the fresh ways that church is being expressed, and that's really something that I tend to geek out on, so I'm really excited for this conversation. So let's talk about the ways that ministry is is happening. Actually, let's go back in time. Let's talk to our yeah. Let's go back to how you got to where you are today in the ways that ministry is happening.

Ryan Dunn:
So you work with a group called Fresh Expressions. Yes. What led you to that work, and what does that work look like?

Heather Jallad:
Awesome. Yeah. Thanks for having me, Ryan. I'm so glad to have this conversation. Fresh expressions is actually a movement that started in the UK with our British Methodist friends, and the Anglican church in England and, almost more than 20 years ago now. And really, it is a a renewal movement of sorts That really recaptures our Wesleyan roots in so many ways, but, we we often say that the the the folks in Europe are from our future as As far as what the church looks like and the decline of the church, and, and, you know, more than 2 decades ago, they saw that decline. And they said, this is concerning. Let's let's study it because that's what good methodists do, I guess.

Heather Jallad:
You know?

Ryan Dunn:
So they formed a commission, and they yes.

Heather Jallad:
There was a committee. No. Anyway, so they did they did a study, and what they what they, discovered was that indeed the holy spirit was continuing to move, surprise, surprise. But in some un, Some unconventional ways and some unconventional nontraditional spaces. And they said, well, gosh. What if we did that on purpose? And when I say nontraditional spaces, like your ball fields or your pubs or your coffee houses or, you know, your school yards, That Christian community was forming in those places. And, and so what they what they did is they said, what if we did that on purpose? And that was kind of the birth of the fresh expressions movement. So fast forward, that came across the pond, and the fresh expressions movement, kinda hit our shores, more than a decade ago now here in in North America.

Heather Jallad:
So I was introduced to it, when I was serving a local church as their as an associate pastor, Very involved in mission and the local community, a lot of mission partnerships and relationships. And I went to I went to a conference, and I don't remember what it was, but I heard Verlyn Fosner speak about dinner church. And, we could that's a whole other story, but, heard him speak about dinner church. And, really, the Holy Spirit just said, What if we had a 3 year long relationship with a local school, as a partner in education, that was about a mile and a half away from our local church. Highest free and reduced lunch in the county, talking like 98%, free and reduced lunch, which also has other implications, like a lot of single parent families, Grandparents raising their grandkids, no working PTA, you know, not the room parents and the room moms and all that kind of stuff going on. And so the church really made the decision that they were going to stand in the gap there. So after 3 years of doing that and learning about the Fresh Expressions movement in the dinner church possibility. I really felt like the Holy Spirit tapped me on the shoulder and said, what if you did this in this school? And, and, you know, there are a lot of factors that came into play along the way, but that is where we started our 1st dinner church here in North Georgia As a United Methodist, and, and it actually just had its 6th birthday.

Heather Jallad:
So, that was kind of my entry into the whole world of fresh expressions.

Ryan Dunn:
Yeah. What did that dinner church look like from the get go? Or is it kind of opening up the church facility? Were you going to somebody's house? Was it a restaurant?

Heather Jallad:
It was actually in the school cafeteria.

Ryan Dunn:
Okay.

Heather Jallad:
It was a a public school. And, you know, one of the things that we talk about in the the Fresh Expressions Movement is this journey that we talk about, this Fresh Expressions journey, which requires listening, paying attention to our community, to what God is doing out there, outside The walls of our churches and where we have those invitations to join God. And because of this relationship and because of a real in Real food insecurity, dinner church just made sense. And because of the trust that was built over time and the relationships with The school staff and the school principal and us really showing up, knowing people's names, they're knowing them them knowing our names, etcetera, and stories. The door was open for us to do that. I I well, we went and I shared it with the principal, with fear and trepidation, and I thought, you know what? The worst she can do is say no. But she said, yes. I think that's a great idea.

Heather Jallad:
And I was like, what? And, and then she said, let me just check it out with the county office, and I thought, well, surely, they're gonna say no. And they said yes. There was a real need being served there, and, and so we started in the school cafeteria with our 1st dinner church. What it looked like were parents and children that were We're a part of that school, much that looked very different from our worshiping congregation even though it was a mile and a half away, but not folks that were coming into our, you know, into our church building, our traditional forms of worship. And so, that community continued to grow. Eventually, we moved to a local food pantry that was 2 blocks away. Just a little easier logistically to get in and out of there with school holidays and everything else, and, you know, we were able to be more consistent with what we were doing.

Ryan Dunn:
There are a lot of feeding programs. How does something like dinner church differ from a feeding program?

Heather Jallad:
Yeah. I think, I mean, one of the things one of the things that we really one of the characteristics of a fresh expression is that mutuality, Is the you know, we're not going to do something to people or for people, but with people. And there is certainly that that Recognition of, the the the sacred worth and value of every human and the love that god has for Them and really really setting the table for god to show up, and and those relationships to form and develop over time. What I have learned in the the dinner church world, particularly, is that when you're sitting at a table and sharing a meal with someone, And you learn a lot about them, and it is such a level playing ground. We all need to eat, and, that is such a A significant part of The Dinner Church is that everybody sits down and eats. We all get to know each other's names. And just like in our churches where everybody sits in the same pews All the time. People tend to sit at the same tables at our dinner churches, and therefore, we're sitting with the same Folks, and over time, we learn more and more about one another.

Heather Jallad:
It is a family table of sorts. It is it's different in that way and and so many other ways as well.

Ryan Dunn:
Are there elements of worship?

Heather Jallad:
It it depends. I mean, one of the things that is very important in, forming fresh Expressions is context. And so we don't necessarily wanna take what we do on a Sunday morning and then just, like, prescriptively, like, lay that over what's happening in that room. Mhmm. But, yes, there are elements of worship. I mean, that would be weird in some places. Right? I mean

Ryan Dunn:
Yeah. Mhmm.

Heather Jallad:
You know? I I mean, we have a lot of we talk about dinner trip, but it's really, like, table centered. Right? And that can happen in a lot of different contexts. But but, yes, You know, there is usually a Jesus story shared. So there is a story from Jesus' life or a story that Jesus told, and there's some conversation around that. Sometimes we have music. There's usually prayer, and, and sometimes we celebrate communion together as well. So it depends on the context.

Ryan Dunn:
So for the folks who were part of your more traditional church expression, When y'all started doing The Dinner Church, how did you respond to the voice that came up? And I'm sure that this voice came up that asked, Okay. When are these people gonna start coming to real church?

Heather Jallad:
Yeah. No. That's absolutely. That is a question that's often asked. And I think the point behind the movement is that this is church. This is church happening where these folks are. And there's a lot of reasons for us to, to kinda dive into that conversation because those are real concerns, right, when our, worship attendance continues to decline, etcetera. But there are a number of factors, you know, that are, part of that number.

Heather Jallad:
And, You know, for for the most part, we're continuing to do church the way we have for, you know, decades, 100 of years even. And, primarily, we gather on Sunday morning around 11, and that world where that made sense no longer exists, when we had, you know, everything shut down on Sunday and no one did anything else, and we catered to the farmer's schedule and All of those other things. I mean, that's no longer a reality. We live in a 247 world. Oftentimes, even if people wanted to come be a part of a worshiping community. Their work, their schedule is prohibitive. With, you know, with single parent families, it's I it's super hard to get out the door with your kids on a Sunday morning if that is literally the only morning you don't have to run out the door. Yeah.

Heather Jallad:
And so, you know, fresh expressions is really very much about meeting people where they are and forming church there. And so taking, a lot of those factors into consideration, I think, are important. Also, I mean, to be quite honest, the the building can be an obstacle for some folks. I mean, you know, a little bit of a a a background of my story. When I first walked in the church building, I thought it was gonna fall in on me. So I was a little bit, intimidated. I didn't actually go into the sanctuary for many, many weeks. I sat outside and listened to the sermon I was afraid I was gonna mess something up or do something wrong.

Ryan Dunn:
If we had all the time in the world, we would unpack that a little bit. Yeah. We're we're keeping on the Fresh Expressions side of that, of the conversation. Well, It sounds like you in your personal story, you got pulled into the Fresh Expressions through meeting the need in in your local church, but you're now part of this kind of nationwide movement of fresh expressions. What was it about that movement that Made you want to continue with it. What was the need that you were seeing, or what was the passion that it was scratching the itch that the passion put out? Awful question, questions, but you know where I'm going.

Heather Jallad:
I think a lot of us, both clergy and laity, are doing some of these things already. And when I encountered and I certainly had done that, and my, mission and community engagement was very, very integral to my own formation. I would say that. And then secondly, in my 1st local pastor appointment, I was doing things that you would call fresh expressions, but I didn't have the language for it. And so when I finally, like, got that language, it was as if I was like, oh my gosh. These people get me. Like, they you know? Oh, this is actually a thing, and I'm not crazy. And, you know so I felt like I found my tribe, if you will.

Heather Jallad:
And, and so that is really kinda what drew me in. It's like, this is what god has shaped me for, called me for, gifted me or and, it just felt like a puzzle piece was you know, that that last piece was put in the puzzle, When when I discovered the Fresh Expressions Movement, and, it's kind of been I'm all in from there.

Ryan Dunn:
Well, in one of your roles with the Fresh Expressions Movement, you host the podcast.

Heather Jallad:
Yes.

Ryan Dunn:
And for sure, in that context, get to hear all kinds of stories. What are some of the ways that, or some of the inspiring stories or innovative stories you've heard through your experience with fresh expressions.

Heather Jallad:
Yeah. It's a great that's a great question because I think that some people have kinda Stumbled on this movement not on purpose. Right? And I'm thinking of 22 people in particular that were both church planters That really we're kind of starting a a traditional, you know, model of church where, you know, a large investment was made and, all the resources that you need to do that and all the on ramps. And And in one case, there was just such a discontent with diminishing returns on that investment. In the other case, the pandemic kind of made them have to shift how they were gathering, and and it it wasn't like, Things were going swimmingly well with their traditional plant prior to that. And this is not a this is not like a A testimony on why church planting is bad. I I there are context where that absolutely makes sense. Your These 2 pastors in particular were willing to, like, almost stand in a different place in the room and say, what if we did this, or see what god did when they had to shift gears and do things differently and say, well, gosh.

Heather Jallad:
This feels like what we're supposed to be doing. This is where we're seeing, you know, a great return on the investment that we're in our community and in these relationships, and we are seeing more and more unchurched and de churched people come and be a part of this Versus, you know, for better or worse, playing musical chairs from 1 church to another. So both in both of those cases, these pastors had a, again, a traditional church plant that actually shifted to a table centered gathering.

Ryan Dunn:
Okay. What do you mean by table centered gathering?

Heather Jallad:
Like a dinner church. Yeah. Meal centered. Got it. Very different places in the country. 1 in Colorado and, the other in Minnesota. So there you go.

Ryan Dunn:
Yeah. Alright. So what did their expressions look like at the beginning? I mean, once they moved past that initial, like, we're gonna pop down in this neighborhood. We're gonna put together a Sunday morning worship service. Once they move past that phase and they're like, that's not gonna work, we gotta do this other thing. Yeah. What did those initial expressions look like?

Heather Jallad:
So one ended up in more of a more or less like a community center space rather than kind of this, you know, traditional church building. The other and and then by virtue of We talk a lot about 3rd spaces in Fresh Expressions that are kind of those places that we frequent in our communities, like the coffee shop or the Gym or they're just openly accessible. We all know the rules of engagement. We can pretty much anticipate what's gonna happen when we walk in the door. It feels free and open unlike my, like, fear and trepidation of walking into a church building for the 1st time. Right?

Ryan Dunn:
Yeah.

Heather Jallad:
But people feel people feel more at ease in walking into these spaces or more more comfortable. They feel more accessible. So, The the the one in Colorado ended up in a, like, a community center of sorts. That's the one in Colorado. The other one in Minnesota Really kind of had to, experiment with what it looked like to gather because they had gone from actually, Worshiping in a school, that obviously they couldn't continue to worship in during the pandemic because a lot of our schools were We're closed. And and, again, to be to be quite honest, they had really, dropped significantly in their worship attendance at that point already. But they they did different experiments like gathering in a public park and having a picnic that, was just very invitational and to the people that were around them to also, partnering with a, a local ministry that they were a part of that was feeding people. So So it's almost the, the the convergence of all of these things, which was very much like what happened into my 1st inner church in, you know, that I started.

Heather Jallad:
It's a convergence. What the church is already doing and how How can we next level those things relationally, incarnationally? I I think a lot of our churches do a great job of Gathering supplies and donating things, but it's absolutely, absent. That that that relational quality can often be We don't know the stories.

Ryan Dunn:
We don't know the names.

Heather Jallad:
We don't know the faces. It is the 2 or the 4. It's not the width. And, and so I I think These opportunities can certainly help us move in that direction.

Ryan Dunn:
You've talked about the church kinda utilizing 3rd spaces to meet people. Have there been some just plain bizarre or really surprising third spaces you've heard that have been effective.

Heather Jallad:
You know, what we see a little bit, growing a little bit Here, in, like, the north nor North Georgia or southeastern jurisdiction of of the United Methodist Church is more of these outdoor type groups, whether it be hiking or some type of outdoor adventuring. We have first expressions that, have started with, like, white water rafting. So, I mean, you know, the to me, that's not something that's on my radar necessarily be thinking about. But then we also have, you know, we also have some that are, you know, that are just in a coffee house Or in a brew pub or something like that where, where people are hanging out and getting to know each other and then beginning to I say that a first by by definition is a community of people that is moving together toward Jesus. And while it doesn't necessarily start that way, that's really kinda where, you know, Where, where Fresh Expressions begin to go.

Ryan Dunn:
That's cool. Well, in your experience in doing the podcast and in helping other people start Fresh expressions. Have there been some other innovative expressions that you would really love to shed some light on or things that might inspire some other people?

Heather Jallad:
Yeah. So, I actually interviewed somebody recently on the Fresh Expressions podcast named Marcus Quarry, and, he actually works at, the Loon Mountain Ski Resort in New Hampshire. And as The young man just had such a love for all the winter sports. And there again, for him, it was, just a convergence of the things that he loved, what he was passionate about, and his faith. My and so he started a fresh expression that, really seeks to to to form Christian community with the People that are really regulars, that are coming to this resort to ski, as well as the just the whole team that makes what's happening there possible. And, again, I think, you know, we talk about 3rd spaces and those, affinity groups being kind of the birthplace for fresh expressions to happen or potentially needs in our communities, networks that we're already a part of, but our passions are an important part of that To the things that we love, the things that, you know, get us up in the morning, and, you know, I've almost started drawing this Venn diagram of of This is where this is the thing that I love, and this is my life in Christ. And the intersection of those 2 things is where fresh expressions have the possibility for happening.

Ryan Dunn:
That's really cool. Yeah.

Heather Jallad:
Yeah. So I I I think we really need to think about, what we're passionate about, what we love. And, you know, for some Folks, it's it's justice issues. I see that happening a lot more as well. Certain areas of, social justice that people are very passionate about, And so you have this core group form and, you know, oftentimes, folks that are unchurched or de churched, you know, very much want To be a part of something bigger than themselves, you know, I would say that is the image of God that is in them.

Ryan Dunn:
Yeah.

Heather Jallad:
They want to be a part of something that's bigger than themselves, and they're Passionate about fighting for those particular things, and that is a place where Christian community can form as well. Alright.

Ryan Dunn:
Well, That might touch then on some of the trends that you see forming. Are there some expressions that are coming up that you tend to see again and again? Dinner Church is probably one of those, but are there some others?

Heather Jallad:
Very much so. I think that that movement is just continuing to grow. You know, it it As far as the fresh expressions, movement is concerned in this country, that, you know, the the godfather of the movement, if If you will, as Verlyn Fosner, who kinda started this out in the Seattle area. But, you know, as As we talk about, you know, Europe being from our future, oftentimes, you know, the the the West Coast kinda comes. What's happening on the West Coast kinda comes across the country as well. Mhmm. So, yes, dinner church, I think a lot of people have gravitated toward For a number of reasons. First of all, you know, the isolation of the pandemic has been felt.

Heather Jallad:
It is it is a a pandemic in and of itself. You know, an epidemic certainly in our country that's that that isolation and that loneliness. And being able to be Part of a table centered community. I mean, you know, I don't have to tell you or anybody that's listening that, you know, the the family meal is, You know, more and more absent from the reality of our everyday lives. And it's just it it's becoming more and more unique that people can connect around the table. So, yeah, I think meal centered for sure. I think another reason that that can continues to kinda grow in its popularity is to some degree, is there there is a form to it. It is while it still needs to be contextual, we need to be sensitive to To the context and to the people and to the, you know, why and the who.

Heather Jallad:
It is a little bit more has a bit more of an order to it, if you will. You know, you do you do typically have a a blessing or an opening prayer. You do share food together, And there's conversation. And then the other elements that come into play, whether there's specific ways that you worship together, You know, those those are kind of up for for grabs as far as what the context is. So I think it's been a little bit easier for people to grasp what the dinner church movement is about. I mean, my goodness. We think about all the meals that Jesus ate with people Mhmm. In the scriptures too and all the different people that were at those tables.

Heather Jallad:
You know Yeah. From the Pharisees to the notorious sinners. Right? So, it is such a common ground for all of us. I think another movement that I I continue to see kinda rising as far as fresh expressions are concerned is is what we will call our messy churches, Okay. Which, again, was adjacent to the fresh expressions movement starting in the UK, has also come over to the state. Again, a little bit more adjacent to what we call church to some degree, but it is Some of

Ryan Dunn:
us call all church messy church, but I'm

Heather Jallad:
like Yeah. I know. Some people are like, ugh, off put

Ryan Dunn:
by the

Heather Jallad:
by the whole idea of messy church. But, Again, it feels more accessible. It's intergenerational, multigenerational. You don't have to be still and Sit still and be quiet. The it's very interactive, and there are there is a meal included. So, yeah, Messy churches, I think, are growing in their, popularity and and dinner churches for sure.

Ryan Dunn:
Alright. So what it's not probably not the meal that makes the messy church the messy church. What what is the messy aspect of a messy church?

Heather Jallad:
I would say that it is again, it's, it's not quiet, and you don't sit still. And there is a sort of an there is a Sort of an order. There are elements that you include, certainly. Right? There is there is a worship. There is a bible story. There is a blessing being in a meal that shares. Sometimes there's songs to song, but there's also, like, games and, you know, interactive art projects and things like like that, for the whole family, not just for the kiddos. It's not something you you drop them off at, but that everybody does together.

Heather Jallad:
And so, yeah, it's not just coming and sitting for an hour. It's it's very interactive and engaging and and probably unpredictable Like most of our fresh expressions are.

Ryan Dunn:
And do you find that the churches are using the the messy church model within their own facilities, or is this something else that they're taking out into the community?

Heather Jallad:
Both. Really, even in in our, area here in North Georgia, we have some folks that, are using their churches and then some that are doing in, like, public spaces like parks or or whatever. So, but, yes, unlike a lot of our, more Contextual fresh expressions that are out in those 3rd spaces with those affinity groups in the community. Our messy churches do tend to gather They're more in, in a traditional church. However, at nontraditional times, on nontraditional days, And, and what makes sense for that particular community. It might be, late on a Sunday afternoon. It might be on a Saturday morning. You know, it might be a Wednesday evening, whatever makes sense for the rhythms of your larger community Okay.

Heather Jallad:
I think is important. And for us to figure that out, We we really have to take the time to pay attention to, to our community, spend time out there to listen And to ask questions, and we need to be better question askers, for sure. So I think that that's part of the Fresh Expressions journey is is listening and paying attention.

Ryan Dunn:
So it's not just a matter of a church saying, well, dinner church or messy church, that sounds like a lot of fun. We're gonna start this program, but really, it's it's responding to, like, our community Yes. May benefit from

Heather Jallad:
Right. And that's that's really kind of counter to how we've done church. Right? Yeah. Because when we think very programmatically, We will create something and say come to our thing.

Ryan Dunn:
Yeah.

Heather Jallad:
Right? Mhmm. And rather than what makes sense for you and the rhythm of Your life and how can we meet you where you are. And so one of the one of the stories that I always tell is that when we started that 1st Inner Church, and I've I've started 3 now in different contexts, in different appointments, in different places. But, when we started that first one was that, it And ended up meeting on a Saturday night, which was so inconvenient for me and so in I mean, I preached every Sunday. Right?

Ryan Dunn:
Yeah. Right. The flow of your life as yeah. I gotta get that sermon done on Saturday night. Right?

Heather Jallad:
It was it was very inconvenient, and and, frankly, an inconvenient for the team that helped start that. Right? Because they were All very engaged and involved in our, you know, our traditional, you know, rhythms of the church and served very generously with their time, etcetera. But we also actually engaged new people that were not serving in those traditional roles in the church. They were like, this is something I wanna do. This So I don't wanna usher. I don't wanna greet, but this is something I wanna do. So, anyway, we looked at this this This real food insecurity, and we said these are the people this is why we're doing it. This is who we're we're looking to build relationships with and form community with.

Heather Jallad:
If the kids eat their last, you know, free and reduced lunch on On, Friday afternoon and don't eat again till Monday morning, the midpoint of that is Saturday night.

Ryan Dunn:
Mhmm.

Heather Jallad:
So, You know, really understanding our who and our why, was absolutely integral to how We went about and what we did.

Ryan Dunn:
Well, it seems like dinner church, messy church are both growing in popularity. Have there been some instances, expressions, some affinity groups that you've come across that you wish would kind of grow in popularity that are just super attractive to you personally.

Heather Jallad:
Personally, I love hanging out in coffee shops. I mean Yeah. It's I say coffee is my love language. I know my husband loves me if he sets the coffee for me in the morning. Aw. But, yes, I mean, I I think there there's just something magic happening in, you know, in coffee shops. I I don't know about you, Ryan, but I, you know, I when I do, like, you know, decide to go do some work in a coffee shop or whatever, the conversations that I overhear, Tell me a lot about the people in my community, but oftentimes, there are spiritual conversations. And so, you know, if I had The the time and all the time in the world to do that, I would do that.

Heather Jallad:
I think another another thing that I would like to see more of, particularly in Our, kind of emerging reality, not only in the church in North America, but even in our denomination is more house churches And networks of house churches, I think there's a a lot of big opportunities there. I wrote my dissertation on I'm catalyzing effective discipleship, through starting Fresh Expressions of church. And what What I think Fresh Expressions does is really put some, some flesh on who it is that we say we are as Followers of Jesus because most of our understanding of discipleship has been equated to, a class, a curriculum, you know, a bible study, or or even, you know, know, coming to worship on Sunday morning, and we have, you know, it's that's pretty anemic in our understanding of what it means to be a a follower of Jesus. And I think that, you know, these these expressions of church, these new forms of church really do not only equip and empower The everyday missionary that's sitting in our pews that gives them those practical embodied ways of living out their their faith. And so, I mean, I don't know why every one of our churches doesn't have a number of fresh expressions coming out of it. And, you know, I think house searches is a great a great way, to to potentially practice doing that as well.

Ryan Dunn:
You know, that's an important point to bring up because in our normal church setting, there can be this fault setting where we kind of leave the process of discipleship to be implemented by the, quote, unquote, paid professionals. Right? Yeah. Do you find that a lot of these fresh expressions are started by people who are on the volunteer level or may not have, like, the ordained credentials.

Heather Jallad:
Yes. I mean, that again, it certainly recaptures our our roots, our Wesleyan roots. And, you know, when When, you know, when Wesley was setting up the the class meetings and the band meetings, and these were these were being led by everyday people, even the circuit writers when they weren't there. Right? That that gathering that gathered community was being led by by a layperson, typically. But but, yeah, I think we're we're moving more in that direction. That's something that I would like to see a lot more of, you know, and and this looks different in every church, Ryan. I can tell you, you know, I get to, you know, walk with churches across the country in doing this. And in some churches, those pastors, the pastoral leadership is absolutely on board with deploying those everyday missionaries, Powering them, releasing them, permission giving, all of that.

Heather Jallad:
And in other places, I think there's there's still a wrestling match going on there. And, you know, one of the anyway, we could go on a whole rabbit trail in that regard. But I I do think that this is a big opportunity for us in the church to be able to identify, the folks that are what we would call Pioneers that have that missional impulse within them, that have those pioneer gifts or what Paul refers to in the of the apostles, the prophets, and the evangelists, right, that are shaped that way. And and To be quite honest, I think a lot of our church a lot of our church history has elevated the gifts of shepherd and teacher. We also expect our pastors to have those gifts. And so when we get apostle lead pastors, we don't know what to do with them. That's another conversation too. But but being able to recognize those gifts, within the body because those are sometimes the folks that are like, you're telling me that I am now a follower of Jesus, and, basically, you know, the next step for me is taking some classes or, you know, being an usher.

Heather Jallad:
And we need our ushers, so don't hear

Ryan Dunn:
me wrong. It's very important work. But

Heather Jallad:
Yeah. But there are those apostle, prophet an evangelist that are like, there's gotta be more. You know? I I feel like I'm supposed to be doing something else. I have a real concern for the people that aren't yet here or that don't yet have that living, breathing relationship with God. Like, what do I do with that? And so I feel like this is almost This almost provides a framework for for folks to to do something with that and not necessarily, oh, this is one more thing I have to do. But where do those passions that I have, that love that I have, or those affinity groups that I'm a part of, or that Place where everybody knows my name, all kind of converge in my life converge with my life in Christ. And and, you know, what does that look like for me?

Ryan Dunn:
That's a really powerful idea that this Idea of fresh expressions really kinda calls the church out of herself that Yes. It's not just the church existing for the sake of the church, but the church existing who, sort of is that centrifugally, centripetally,

Heather Jallad:
loo Yes.

Ryan Dunn:
How into the world. Yeah.

Heather Jallad:
Yeah. And not only that. So not only that, but the the impact on those Disciples, coming back to their their church. They're sending church. They're they're worshiping community that kinda sent them out. And what they bring back that kind of disrupts the reality and and and forces us to ask new questions and And maybe get a little bit uncomfortable. And, you know, all of those things that bring about change and, You know, I know that's a dirty word to some folks, but, I mean, if we're honest Scary

Ryan Dunn:
word. Right.

Heather Jallad:
That is that's that's It's the Christian journey. I mean, if we're called to sanctification, you know, then we're constantly changing and being transformed. And so I think these are Beautiful disruptors to maybe some of the, you know, some of the defaults that we're all, very comfortable in.

Ryan Dunn:
I appreciate you bringing that up because it alleviates my confusion over the word centripetal and centrifugal. And then it's both. Right? The church is both. It It moves out while drawing within to the center. It just

Heather Jallad:
The gathered and the scattered. Yes.

Ryan Dunn:
Yeah. Oz's

Heather Jallad:
smothered and covered like we say here in Georgia at the Waffle House.

Ryan Dunn:
Only if you're at the Waffle House.

Heather Jallad:
Yes. Yes.

Ryan Dunn:
Have there been some some books, some authors that have really Spire, do you intellectually or theology or theologically in pursuit of of seeking fresh expressions?

Heather Jallad:
Oh my goodness. I have, like, a whole bibliography.

Ryan Dunn:
For me. Who do I wanna read next?

Heather Jallad:
I was gonna say I have a whole bibliography I can send you from my dissertation, I mean, you know, Mike Moyna, Church of England, I would call him one of the the godfathers of the movement and the fresh expressions movement there, has really written prolifically on the movement and really, you know, was was integral in This whole idea of a fresh expressions journey looking at movements across Christian history. It's not something we just, like, pulled out of thin air, but really, was attentive to kind of how those movements emerged

Ryan Dunn:
Mhmm.

Heather Jallad:
Across Christian history and and and the the factors that were held in common with each of them, that's kind of how the the fresh fresh expressions journey came about. So Mike Moina, certainly, Michael Beck here in the States has written, you know, again, also prolifically, I think the man writes a book every night when he goes before he goes to bed. But

Ryan Dunn:
I feel like every time I log on to Facebook, he's making a book announcement. Yeah.

Heather Jallad:
My gosh. That's the truth. But, yes, Michael Beck, for sure. Gosh. The, Luke Edwards, Western North Carolina conference wrote a book that I I pretty much, recommend to everybody now called Becoming Church, and he uses the backdrop drop of hiking the Appalachian Trail as a metaphor for becoming church. It's really accessible, you know, very easy to read, But also very deep in what it offers to the possibilities of of starting a fresh expression and pioneering these new forms of church. Those would be my those would be at the top of my list for sure.

Ryan Dunn:
And we had Luke on the show back I can, sometime in 2020, I believe. Yeah.

Heather Jallad:
Oh, that was before you wrote the book, so you need to have him on again.

Ryan Dunn:
Okay. Alright. Yeah. I

Heather Jallad:
mean, his gosh. His his website on the listening church is also fantastic. If if you haven't check that out. I highly encourage you to do so.

Ryan Dunn:
Mhmm. Well, what's in store for you. Are you working on some new projects, ideating your own fresh expression into the future, anything like that?

Heather Jallad:
So for me, I just took on the role of associate director of training for Fresh Expressions North America, so that's kinda new territory. Some of the things that are different in the year to come is we're doing a lot more, kind of smaller regional gatherings and immersive experiences. We we have a an outdoor winter sports immersive experience that's happening in March. Cool. We have one, The outdoor adventuring in, in May that's coming up. But we're also gonna be doing some more regional, conferences, so I'm excited to to be part of those. Those will be coming in the fall of this year. As far as myself, we just celebrated the 1 the 1st birthday of a collaborative dinner church that we started, where I'm at here that was actually 2 different, United Methodist churches coming together with a local food co op And starting a dinner church gathering.

Heather Jallad:
So that's been amazing and wonderful. I'm looking forward to, in the year to come, Potentially starting a a network of micro churches myself, and, you know, we'll we'll see if, if God sees fit to make that possible, but that's that's the vision that I have. That's the vision I've been given, and then I'm hopeful to To be able to live into I have been very inspired by the Tampa Underground and the Kansas City Underground, which are Microchurch, networks and, and kinda looking to them, to to how that happened And taking a page from them and and kinda getting started and getting some some things in play. So that that is really what I'm looking forward to in the new year.

Ryan Dunn:
Awesome. Boom. Well, many blessings on you in those endeavors. I'd love to be able to check-in and and hear how the, I don't know. The the North Georgia underground is coming around.

Heather Jallad:
I think it's about

Ryan Dunn:
the yeah.

Heather Jallad:
Something like that. We'll see. Cool. Thanks, Ryan.

Ryan Dunn:
Yeah. And and as far as some of the resources go and people who want to, maybe get a little piece of training within dinner church or take their next steps in messy church. Is there a specific spot to look for some of that information?

Heather Jallad:
Yeah. I mean, we have our website fresh expressions.comfreshexpressions.com. If you click on that home page, you can click on training, and there's all different kinds of opportunities that you can find there. We also have an FXUM, Paige now as well, and I will probably have to email you the link to that because I can't remember exactly what it is. But it does come under discipleship ministries For the United Methodist Church. So we have some different, training possibilities there as well and training events. So Lots of things for people to check out, and love to have more conversations with you and walk with you on this Fresh Expressions journey. Cool.

Ryan Dunn:
And with that, our geeky dive into church models is complete. If you have any thoughts, questions, or personal experiences you'd like to share. We encourage you to reach out to us through email. You can email us at rethink church at umcom.org. I'd love to hear some of your ideas for fresh expressions of church. If you could use a little more inspiration, well, then Check out episode 118 about artificial intelligence in your spiritual journey, just kinda new innovative stuff. Or you can check out episode 111. There, we talk about church and institutions, and that episode addresses some of the reasons people might not want to connect with a church.

Ryan Dunn:
While you're Sning. Please do leave a rating and or review. It helps out a ton. The Compass podcast is brought to you by United Methodist Communications. We'll be back with a new episode in 2 weeks time. I will chat at you then. Peace.