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On the morning of March 27, 2023, a gunman entered Covenant School in Nashville, Tennessee, and shot 6 people to death. This event was a catalyst in Nashville, leading to protests, political intrigue and division, and the organization of a wide base of religious leaders. In this episode of Compass, Michelle Maldonado and Ryan Dunn share their experiences in response to the shootings, the political climate and their first-hand participation in some of the demonstrations and protests that have happened since March 27--including the April 17, 2023, Moral Monday demonstration in Nashville.
This episode provides insight from leaders and participants in the local actions, including Rev. Dr. William Barber of the Poor Peoples' Campaign and Repairers of the Breach, Rev. Ingrid McIntyre, and Rev. Stacey Harwell-Dye. They all share why these events have been a motivating factor in the mobilization of clergy and people of faith.
(00:00) Introduction
(00:35) Faith leaders take action
(02:26) March 27, 2023
(05:44) Demonstrations and the Tennessee Three
(08:45) Local leaders organize
(12:57) Rev. Dr. William Barber on organizing Moral Monday in Nashville
(22:07) Rev. Stacey Harwell-Dye and Rev. Ingrid McIntyre on why faith leaders take action
(29:16) What happened at Moral Monday Nashville
(31:40) Speaker clips: Angera Ferrell-Zabala, Bishop Anne Henning-Byfield and William Barber
(39:18) Inside the statehouse
(44:11) The cost of inaction
(49:31) What happens now?
(52:16) Final thoughts
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This episode posted on May 2, 2023
Ryan Dunn:
This is the Compass Podcast where we disrupt the everyday with glimpses of the divine. Hi, my name is Ryan Dunn.
Michelle Maldonado:
And I'm Michelle Maldonado.
Ryan Dunn:
Michelle, in this episode we're talking about the intersection of the sacred and the secular, particularly around politics in some recent events that, well, have gone national here in Nashville, Tennessee. So we're going to start in taking a look at a specific or taking a listen, I suppose, it's a podcast, we don't have that going on here, of specific events in [inaudible 00:00:53]. Pretty familiar song to most of us who have been around church for a little while.
Michelle Maldonado:
One of the basics.
Ryan Dunn:
Right? Yeah, probably one of the first ones we learned. Maybe not with those lyrics there, I don't know if people could catch it though. They were singing it all around the capitol I'm going to let it shine. And the context for what was happening here was that there was a political rally and a religious rally going on in the Tennessee State Capitol. Actually, this clip came from a protest or demonstration inside the State House as the general assembly was in session. And what had happened was a group of local religious leaders got together to really just kind of cause a scene and to let it be known that they wanted to see some action on legislation that they felt was important for human flourishing. And in this case, when they got together, they sang, as you heard, they spoke about their priorities and they prayed.
But it was kind of a weird experience there because they were holding something like a church service complete with the songs and an Amen corner, and it was in the middle of the halls of legislature. So we're going to see in this episode, if we can understand how we got to this point where the sacred was invading the secular in the form of religious leaders making pushes for political legislation. And in this case, it all started on the morning of Monday, March 27th, 2023. And actually you and I Michelle, we were in a meeting at that point.
Michelle Maldonado:
Yes, we were.
Ryan Dunn:
We were leading.
Michelle Maldonado:
We were leading. Yeah, it was a company-wide meeting so everybody in the agency was with us on this call and our team was leading it so that was a little awkward.
Ryan Dunn:
Yes, and I was in charge of the prayer portion of that meeting and we had a request from one of our participants who just said like, "Hey, I heard that this one school is in lockdown. There could be something going on there, so let's lift them up in prayer." And we did. And a short while later, we learned that six people, three students and three staff were killed at random. And this was the Covenant School in Nashville, Tennessee. The students who died were Evelyn Dieckhaus, William Kinney and Hallie Scruggs all age nine. And the staff who died were substitute teachers Cynthia Peak age 61 custodian, Mike Hill, also 61, and the head of the school, Katherine Koonce, age 60. Eden Hale was identified as the shooter, and Metro Nashville Police Department police chief John Drake said Hale was under care for an emotional disorder and had legally purchased seven firearms, including three recovered from the shooting scene.
Hale had purchased those between October 2020 and June 2022. Hale also died at the scene from gunfire from police who came in response. So here's really a timeline of events. On that morning, again, March 27th, 2023, Hale drove to the Covenant School arriving at 9:54 AM and parking in the parking lot. At 9:57, Hale sent an Instagram message to an old friend saying an earlier post that he made was basically a suicide note and then he planned to die that day. His friend then called a crisis hotline before contacting the Davidson County Sheriff's Office at 10:13. At 10:11, Hale shot a set of glass sliding doors and entered the building. He was armed with two rifles and a pistol. At 10:13, police received a call about an active shooter. That could have been the friend or it could have been somebody at the school. And when police arrived at the scene, a teacher told an officer that the students were in lockdown and two were missing.
Officers entered the building at around 10:23 AM. While clearing the first floor of students and staff, they heard gunshots coming from the second floor. Officers stepped over a victim on the second floor as they made their way to Hale. At 10:25, a five member team approached Hale. Two of the officers fired four times each killing Hale at 10:27, 14 minutes after the initial 911 call was made. A reunification center was set up at the Woodmont Baptist Church by the Metro Nashville Police Department. Students who had fled the school were taken to the center by a school bus in the afternoon. Parents identified and retrieved their children who were first counted separately. Immediately after these events, groups started mobilizing to call for legislature change regarding guns in the state of Tennessee. And by Thursday, March 30th, a large student-led protest took place at the Tennessee State Capitol Building or the Tennessee State House as participants took the protest into the galley, or is it galley or gallery?
Michelle Maldonado:
I think it might be gallery.
Ryan Dunn:
Okay. All right. I kind of use those interchangeably so forgive that. Into the gallery. As the legislative session was in progress, three Tennessee State lawmakers came to the speaking area, which is often called the well, in support of the protestors. The speaker then had the gallery cleared and the general assembly went into recess to restore order. Well, shortly thereafter, a piece of legislation was introduced to expel the three lawmakers on the basis that they broke legislative decorum. And these three lawmakers have become known as the Tennessee three. They're Justin Pierce of Memphis, Justin Jones of Nashville, and Gloria Johnson of the Knoxville area, all three are Democrats. The following Thursday, April 6th, the legislative body voted to remove representatives Jones and Pierce.
Now, Gloria Johnson did not receive the required two thirds votes to be expelled. Now, it came out during the hearings that this was not just about the trio's participation in the protest. The three had actually rankled the powers that be by some of their questioning and vocal opposition to some of the bills that were being introduced. And Justin Jones for those in the know, was already a well known person as a political activist. And at one point, Justin had camped out on the Capitol lawn for like 60 something days so they actually had created a bill just around what Justin Jones had been doing at that time that banned camping in government spaces like that.
Michelle Maldonado:
I hadn't realized that was him.
Ryan Dunn:
Yes.
Michelle Maldonado:
That is awesome.
Ryan Dunn:
Same person. Took it to the next level and got elected to an official position so that he could continue advocating for these positions.
Michelle Maldonado:
Nice.
Ryan Dunn:
So the people in power inside the State Capitol building were already somewhat predisposed to liking or disliking this crew. Now ironically, the following week, local legislative bodies held hearings to fill the vacated seats that the representatives had been expelled from, and they just voted to send back in both Justin Jones and Justin Pearson. So who knows what was accomplished there? But in the meantime people got angrier and more motivated to express their displeasure, including a number of local religious leaders and really leaders across Tennessee. So locally, we had an action of clergy on April 5th, that's what we just heard from. And this was simply a gathering of song and prayer and a time to just lay out an agenda as we heard. And well, it did kind of end up sounding like a church service. So there was more to come. Shortly after this action, a group called Repairers of the Breach organized an action for Monday, April 17th.
Now, Repairers of the Breach is a continuance of the moral movement that began in North Carolina in 2015. And they are in part an extension of the Poor People's Campaign, which goes way back to the 1960s. Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King was integral in the Poor People's Campaign, and it reinvented itself or reintroduced itself in the 2010s. And they're a group that organizes something called the Moral Monday Actions, and they determined, this is again Repairers of the Breach, determined to hold a Moral Monday action in Nashville on April 17th. The figurehead of Repairers of the Breach is Reverend Dr. William Barber II, he's a pretty well known figure. He's a former director of the North Carolina division of the NAACP, and someone who the media often turns to get a reaction with a Christian perspective, especially around social justice issues.
Michelle Maldonado:
Yeah, he's also usually a guest when there's panels about any type of topic that they want to get the perspective of a religious leader, an African-American so as an intersection of all these things that he has this great background in.
Ryan Dunn:
And if you search him out he's going to come up with tons of clips for CNN and other places where he has appeared. Now Michelle, I don't know about you, but I often heard that we're not supposed to mix politics and religion. You you've heard that too I guess.
Michelle Maldonado:
Yep.
Ryan Dunn:
Our nation state is even kind of set up in a way that is supposed to keep the two separate, right?
Michelle Maldonado:
Theoretically.
Ryan Dunn:
At least in the way that our religion is not supposed to be in charge of our politics. So does action like this ignore that separation where we have religious leaders coming into the places of governance and demanding action? And I think it's also important to question why do the religious leaders feel the need to take demonstrative action in this case, action that could result in things like arrests? Certainly as we're going to hear about when we start talking about April 17th, they were ready for that.
Michelle Maldonado:
Yeah.
Ryan Dunn:
They were taking some substantial action to be prepared for that.
Michelle Maldonado:
I even overheard a gentleman on the phone calling his wife and saying like, "Hey, I'm at this event. This is what's happening. If you don't hear from me in the next two, three hours, just know there might be a chance I've been arrested. Just FYI."
Ryan Dunn:
Well, I'll tell you as I was heading to the Capitol, we're jumping ahead to April 17th there, but as I was heading down there that morning there was a line of 18 state trooper vehicles.
Michelle Maldonado:
Geez.
Ryan Dunn:
This was on I-40 on the big thoroughfare on into downtown Nashville, all in a line, very neatly organized.
Michelle Maldonado:
They were ready.
Ryan Dunn:
Yep. They were ready and there was something going down that day. So what were the hopes of this action? And other things I was curious about based on the events, would the protests make a difference and what were they hoping to have? So actually got to sit a little bit with Dr. Barber in a press conference, and he offered some insights on what their expectations were for the day. It was a long press conference so these are just some clips that we pulled together to be able to highlight the who, the what, the where and the why of the Moral Monday action.
Dr. William Barber II:
And we must call it what it is, that's why we are coming as preachers and clergy. We can no longer as preachers and clergy be content to simply bury people who die from gun violence or the lack of healthcare or poverty, and counsel the families and not be engaged in challenging and reshaping public policy. We must respond to this policy violence with a moral coalition that leads a movement against the policies of murder, social murder. 10 years ago this month in North Carolina, we did just that. We launched the Moral Monday movement and it worked. The protest extremism of a Tea Party takeover that would aim to dismantle our state government. We engaged with a diverse coalition that looked like our state in every way. In the first year, we went for 14 weeks of non-violent civil disobedience, registering people to vote, challenging the morality or the immorality of policy.
We traveled across the state. We went right into the heart of so-called extremist politician districts and held Moral Mondays in their districts and organized people where I first met Justin Jones. We will not let formality be the enemy of moving forward. We are demanding that our representatives open debates with the truth, not partisan distortion. There is no corollary between more weapons and less violence. We demand universal background checks. We demand abandoned assault weapons. And on Monday, we'll have a whole list of clear demands coming from our best legal and moral mind. And we pledge to show the country that this isn't just about guns, the battle for gun laws is directly tied to the battle for the restoration of the voting rights. Some people say what can't be done, where normal political logic gets upended when there's a moral movement.
A lot of things can't be done, but when a movement happens, when a resurrection happens, when a Red Sea gets opened, when prophets start having schools of profit, all the logic goes out the window. When a remnant rises, when the valley of dry bones comes together, it is time for all of us to continue the moral fusion third reconstruction movement that in various ways for the last 10 years has been rising up all over the country. And we are just seeing another element of it here in Nashville and we must continue it and push it. And we as clergy from a crowned nation of Nashville are here to say we will no longer simply be the counselors and the eulogists. Oh no, we will be the prophetic voices right in the middle of the policy debate and demand that our policies match our moral claims of justice for all and providing for the common defense, promoting the general welfare and ensuring domestic tranquility for all.
And any policies that rob people of their rights is contrary to our deepest moral and religious values. The remnant is rising, forward justice is our legal team on the ground and to be clear we want to let everybody know this is a non-violent gathering. Our love is militant in the sense that our love doesn't back up. We love everybody. Our love is radical, but our work and our standing is always non-violent. We do not use the weapons of their warfare in order to challenge the public policy war that's going on against our people. So we invite everybody to come be there, meet us at two o'clock at the United, what's the name?
Speaker 3:
McKendree.
Dr. William Barber II:
McKendree United Methodist Church where Reverend Handy is the pastor. Is that right?
Speaker 3:
That's right.
Dr. William Barber II:
And then we will have our teaching for people participating because we always teach before we move. Then we'll march at three o'clock, we'll get to the state Capitol at 4:00. Moral Monday rallies do not stay until Jesus comes. That is not our purpose. We don't stay and preach till evening is over and then miss the whole action. Our Moral Monday rallies are one hour, at the most one hour and 15 minutes. People come with a specific topic and they speak strong because what is most important is that we take our bodies into the general assembly and deliver the demands and put a face. We are asking persons who have experienced gun violence death to come and bring the pictures of your children. I know it's hard. God knows I can't even imagine, but sometimes the spirit of Emmett Till's mama must descend on us. So let us do this. Let us begin again.
Let us begin again and again and again and again because what we won't do is be silent anymore. And we are going to be among those clergy who not only preach it, but live it and suffer for it and sacrifice for it and stand for it.
Ryan Dunn:
So there we go. We heard some of the vision, we heard some of the what and the where and the hopes for that. And Michelle, you and I decided that we would participate in the Moral Monday action as well.
Michelle Maldonado:
Yes.
Ryan Dunn:
Why did you want to attend?
Michelle Maldonado:
That is a little bit of a long story, so I'll condense it as much as I can. So I graduated high school around 2009, so we were at the beginning of the whole school shooting thing. For us it was never a imminent danger, but we joked about it like, oh, that kid's a little suss. Everybody keep an eye on him. You never know. So we could still joke about it to an extent, but it's just gotten so out of hand. So that was one of the reasons why I just wanted to be there and be in support of some gun control because this is just ridiculous. Why do we need to get used to the idea of kids dying the worst death possible while they're at school doing math? So that was one point and it was here in my home city.
And the other reason too is that I'm originally from Florida, a little tiny area called Lake Placid in Seabourn, Florida. It's central Florida in the middle of nowhere. And back home we also had a mass shooting in the little tiny town which was very weird, and I actually lost family. And that was just like, okay, of course it's different when it hits home, you get more perspective. So since that, everybody I know who was affected by that death personally we've all gotten even more involved because we get it at a different level. So that's another reason why I was like, yep, let's do it and let's take the day and be there.
Ryan Dunn:
Well, the action that I attended on April 5th, there were maybe 40 to 50 people there. This thing on April 17th, it was big. I'm not good at estimating large crowds. I don't know if you have the capability to do that.
Michelle Maldonado:
So I got a shot with my phone where I just rose my hand as far as I could and I was on my tippy toes and I panned the video out and the entire legislated plaza was full all the way down to the following street. If you're not familiar with the way that it's set up in Nashville, that area could easily fit over 1,500 people, and I could not see the end of the road in that area. So that means that there was probably at least 1,500 people there.
Ryan Dunn:
Wow. Okay. All right. Well, obviously then several other church folk from around the area attended. So I wanted to know some more perspectives, and we reached out to just find out what other people had in terms of hopes in participating and what they observed through the day. So one of the people who we spoke with was the Reverend Stacey Harwell-Dye, who is from West End United Methodist Church in Nashville, Tennessee. And Reverend Stacey is the pastor of Missions and outreach there and here were some of her perspectives.
Stacey Harwell-Dye:
I think moral witness is incredibly important. I think that we who are clergy are part of a lineage of people that have been called throughout scripture to speak truth to power. And what I like about events like that is that they're political without being partisan, which is I think another important distinction to draw in especially being a clergy person doing this work. And so I think we're called to do what the prophets called the people of God to do throughout centuries, to defend the widow and the orphan and the stranger among us. And we are called to be political in that way because it is that realm where a lot of the overarching decisions about care for people happens. That's the room where these decisions get made and so clergy are I believe called to speak into those decisions to defend the folks that God called us to pay special care to.
And many in our state legislature did not make decisions that I thought lined up with the flourishing of all people in this session. And they do all of that while claiming to be Christian, and so I wanted to say as a pastor, no, that is not consistent with the biblical witness towards justice that I read when I read scripture. So I wanted to be part of this moral witness. I wanted to be with a group of other pastors also doing this and faithful life folks, because I believe that there's power in numbers. So that's part of the reason why I was drawn to this, is because I thought that this had the capability of having lots of generating discussions and lots of the more folks that are there, the more people pay attention to it and that's why I wanted to be part of it as well.
Ryan Dunn:
Another person who we spoke with was Reverend Ingrid McIntyre, and Ingrid had a little bit of a hard time describing what she does. She's a pastor on staff at both Belmont United Methodist and Glencliff United Methodist Churches. She's also been very active in community organization, particularly on behalf of those experiencing homelessness. So she helped a found an organization called OpenTable Nashville, which provides resources and advocacy for those experiencing homelessness. And she also helped to found the village at Glencliff, which is kind of this cool little micro home village that provides respite care for at-risk people with medical needs. And she offered her perspectives on why she helped to organize both the April 5th event and also why she was such a participant in the April 17th Memorial Monday.
Ingrid McIntyre:
No, I know Isaiah has been quoted a lot in the past three weeks, "Woe to those who make unjust laws." It's necessary for people of faith to show up and to embody our faith. We are usually pretty good about talking about our faith, a lot of us are good about going to church sometimes, or being involved in a community or a group that discusses our faith or that reads books about our faith or that does practice in some ways. But a lot of times I think we forget about the embodiment, the actual embodiment feet on the streets kind of work that has to be done in order for on Earth as it is in heaven. We talk about that a lot. We talk about, oh God, please make it be on earth as it is in heaven, and I think God is doing God's part in that, and we have to meet them there to do the work as well.
So it's not a political stance for me, which oftentimes obviously people criticize. This is about my understanding of my faith. This is about my understanding of the actual scriptures, what Christ is calling us to do and be in the world. I don't think that God would have felt it necessary for there to be Christ embodied if that wasn't important. So I think that it's important for us to show up. So really most of what was needed from us here was just to get the word out and to say it's important that we show up at this time and that we show up unified and that we show up with a message that our state is in the death dealing business right now. And that it is a moral failing for us not to speak up and speak out against what is happening on a state leadership level.
And certainly that's not just about the guns, right? It's about upholding democracy as well. So I just showed up, I helped get the word out, spoke a few words at the rally, and then was able and honored to go onto the house floor when Representative Jones and Pearson and Johnson went back onto the floor also with Reverend Barber and myself. And so that was certainly an honor, but also I think speaks to their faith as well, to the legislators, to our representatives' faith, and how their faith plays such a role in the way that they lead and has always played such a role.
Ryan Dunn:
Again, that was Reverend Ingrid McIntyre. Michelle, what did you expect to happen through that day? Did you have some high expectations?
Michelle Maldonado:
I didn't expect it to be an all day thing.
Ryan Dunn:
Yeah, I think Reverend Barber was on church time.
Michelle Maldonado:
Yeah.
Ryan Dunn:
'Cause he was like, yeah, it's going to be a hour, hour 15 if it was a little bit stretched out from that.
Michelle Maldonado:
No, that was a long day. I guess I wasn't expecting that. It makes sense, of course it does. This was not going to be an easy in and out kind of thing, but I didn't expect but I'm not surprised that, we'll probably get to this in a little bit, but at the end of the day nothing happened and that was really discouraging. And again, I was not prepared for that mentally or emotionally. I thought something needs to happen. Look at everything that's happening, look at these people having church at Legislative Plaza voicing what happens. Those folks can absolutely hear the testimonies that people were giving direct victims of direct gun violence in school, out of school, et cetera. I was just not expecting that that day, but I'm not surprised.
Ryan Dunn:
I think there's hope coming out of this. Maybe not the big splash that we had really hoped for at the beginning of the day happened, but we'll get into what actually did happen. So let's kind of go through a timeline of that day's events. So first we gathered at McKendree United Methodist Church for a time of preparation. And from there we marched several blocks to the State House, and at the lead of the march were several caskets. I know you were able to plow ahead and see those in action. Were people reacting to that or?
Michelle Maldonado:
Yes, I actually got it on video. I was actually running to my car really quick and just forget that, I was like, no, let me stay and record this. When the folks were exiting the church, it's a very old school looking church and it's right on this very trafficked area right in the middle of downtown Nashville. So when all these people holding signs and caskets came out and small child size caskets, tourists and passersbyers they were be like, whoa, what is going on? And I think a few actually even joined in because they just did not look like part of the organized group. They just looked like they were tourists and they're like, oh yeah, heck yeah, let's do this. But also a couple of people you could tell they were just like, ugh, these liberals. You got a sense of that, and I did get a video of people walking by being like, what is going on?
Ryan Dunn:
What struck me in participating in the march was just how quiet it was.
Michelle Maldonado:
Yes.
Ryan Dunn:
Downtown Nashville, not generally a quiet place. It's kind of known for its ruckessness, right?
Michelle Maldonado:
Oh my God it's obnoxiously loud with a lot of woo girls.
Ryan Dunn:
Yeah. So there was none of that.
Michelle Maldonado:
Woo.
Ryan Dunn:
We didn't hear any of the woo girls.
Michelle Maldonado:
No, there was nothing.
Ryan Dunn:
Yes, it was...
Michelle Maldonado:
It was sober.
Ryan Dunn:
It was eerie quiet.
Michelle Maldonado:
It really felt like a funeral. It really felt like a funeral.
Ryan Dunn:
Yeah, and there was impact in that. I think people were taking notice. So as the march ended, really a second rally took place on the State House steps and here we got more reflections on why religious leaders were so interested in participating in this action. This first step or this first clip that we're going to hear is from Angela Ferrell-Zabala of Mom's Demand Action in Every Town for Gun Safety. And she offers some really good perspective on why demonstrations like this can have impact.
Angela Ferrell-Zabala:
I joined the fight against gun violence because I wanted to cure this sickness because our children are dying. I'm tired of hearing [inaudible 00:31:55] about tragedy after tragedy in this country and the most our leaders can muster up are thoughts and prayers. I'm a person of faith and I believe in the power of prayer, but as James taught us, faith without works is dead. We need policies and change. To me, living in your faith means asking every day what you can do to help others so that we might all prosper. That's faith in action.
Ryan Dunn:
So her reason for participating was putting faith into action. We've been kind of concentrating lately on our content about faith in action and even calling faith like a verb. Faith is more than belief. Faith is something that puts us into movement. We're going to hear a little bit more of that from Bishop Anne Henning Byfield of the AME church, and she's showing that the issues at hand weren't simply about the school shooting, but that this was a symptom of deeper neglect. There's so much more going on here, and that's why these leaders are coming together.
Anne Henning Byfield:
I'm here to say we have come together, working together, believing together, praying together, marching together, politicizing together, protecting together, denouncing that children have value because we are one. We are one. We are one and we will stop as one.
Ryan Dunn:
Obviously we were outside and there's a lot of outdoor noise. Some of the more touching and passionate presentations came from a parent of the Covenant School as well as some of the local students. The local students were very demonstrative in their political talk because they were talking about, we are becoming the voters, we are going to become the leaders, and you need to listen to us. And I think Dr. Barber picked up on that and really turned up the heat on that kind of rhetoric.
Michelle Maldonado:
Yeah, when those girls were speaking, they're college age and Vanderbilt, was it?
Ryan Dunn:
Mhmm-mm.
Michelle Maldonado:
The way that the last gal who spoke, she said, we're taking the house. The way she said it gave me chills because in that moment, yeah, we were going to do it. It was so hopeful. I have no idea how to explain or put into words.
Ryan Dunn:
And Dr. Barber had some more to add to that.
Dr. William Barber II:
All over the south, we're coming for that house, we're coming for that city. We don't have to use violence. We'll use our power. We're coming young. We're coming old. We're coming middle age. We're coming protestors. We're coming voting. We are coming and we intend to get what we're coming for. This is Moral Fusion. Now we're going to try to take these caskets on the inside, but they're not going to get a rest today. They're going to hear us today. And what they need to know is what they hear today is what they going to hear in their own districts and at the ballot box until justice come. Come on Yara, come on singers.
Ryan Dunn:
Dr. Barber was talking about voting in sympathetic candidates as he was talking about taking the house as were the students who spoke earlier, but it also became clear that we were actually going to physically move on to take up space in the actual State House as part of our day. And now, before you start conjuring images of this January 6th storming of a state run facility-
Michelle Maldonado:
We're more civilized than that.
Ryan Dunn:
Yes. And well, Dr. Barber proclaimed that as a value, right? Everything was going to be peaceful.
Michelle Maldonado:
Yes, and at the beginning when we were still gathered at the church sanctuary, they passed out a form that it was a covenant, it was what they called it, right?
Ryan Dunn:
Yes.
Michelle Maldonado:
Actually, I have a copy right now in my backpack. It really outlined the respectful way to do this demonstration, and it even had a section where you could sign so you're committing to abiding by that respectful way of exercising your right.
Ryan Dunn:
Yeah, I noted that we weren't even supposed to swear.
Michelle Maldonado:
Yeah.
Ryan Dunn:
That pinpointed on being respectful and giving an air of, I guess, authority through that. Right? I mean, there can be a sense of authority in being that kind of strong voice without resorting to just these sensationalistic or overly violent kind of action. So this was not the January 6th type thing. I want to assure you it was nothing like that. This was a parade of walking over to the State House and then actually standing in line for quite a long time to go through security.
Michelle Maldonado:
And very respectful too. You got to remember, these were all mostly religious leaders so they know better. We know better.
Ryan Dunn:
Yeah. And then once we got through security it was taking seats in either one of the lobbies or in the gallery above the legislative floor. And actually since we had so much time, Michelle, we got to talking standing in line and what our impressions were there. All right, Michelle hot take, what's going on right now?
Michelle Maldonado:
We are waiting in line to get into the State Capitol. There is hundreds of us. It's been a really great turnout of people. [inaudible 00:37:40], a lot of Methodists, a lot of faces. It's been nice, unfortunate that we have to meet this.
Ryan Dunn:
You went on to note that you were kind of blown away by the diversity of people who were participating, even from people who were out of state. So I noticed a few out-of-state people there, and I was curious as to why this local issue would draw them to travel here. And so I caught up with Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove, and he serves as the assistant director for partnerships and fellowships at Yale University Center for Public Theology and Public Policy. And he's a pretty well known author too. So one of his books, New Monasticism that impressed a young budding theologian named Ryan. So I remembered Jonathan's face and I found him in the crowd, and that wasn't actually too hard because he's one of the few people that towers above me, he's like 6'6.
And I asked him why he felt the need to come over from North Carolina for this event. And we were doing a walk and talk, and that sound clip just had too much wind noise. We've heard a lot of that already for us to really listen to comfortably, but Jonathan noted that the same issues that we're reacting to in Tennessee are being addressed in his home state of North Carolina. So in order to create massive change, we really need to encourage this sense of solidarity that nobody's on this island in addressing these topics. So that all happened while we were patiently standing in line, and then in an orderly fashion we went through the security checkpoint and we finally made it in. And Michelle, then what happened?
Michelle Maldonado:
All right. So we got in, we went through the security and when we were finally in the building, we were just greeted by folks singing. Singing gospel music, chanting. It was like church. I walked in there and I was at church with a bunch of state troopers. That was such an odd thing to see, but it was really cool.
Ryan Dunn:
And then we went in and we took some seats in the gallery and I had never actually really observed state legislature at that level before so it was kind of interesting. And it's important to note that at this point, representatives Jones and Pearson had been reinstated.
Michelle Maldonado:
Yes.
Ryan Dunn:
They were back on the floor and Johnson, Jones, and especially Pearson again, the Tennessee three, they participated in a lot of debate.
Michelle Maldonado:
The whole time, yeah.
Ryan Dunn:
They were recognizable voices.
Michelle Maldonado:
I actually got a couple of pictures from some of their colleagues just sitting there rolling their eyes like, oh, there they go again.
Ryan Dunn:
Yeah.
Michelle Maldonado:
Absolutely you can just read their body language. And I was like, ah, this is so frustrating.
Ryan Dunn:
Yeah, and there was one point at which Representative Pearson was being a bit cantankerous about a city charter. And even I at that point, you'd noted that this went on for a while.
Michelle Maldonado:
Yes.
Ryan Dunn:
We were waiting for a specific bill to come up. I have an idea that the organizers of the Moral Monday had some kind of direct action that they were planning to bring out in coinciding with the introduction of that bill. So there was a lot of anticipation for that particular bill to come up. We made it there well before that bill did come up, so we got to hear a lot of other debate around several other bills. And there was one about a city charter, and you would think that this would just be like, the Is have it bang the gavel, let's move on. But Representative Pearson kept bringing up questions about this city charter even I was getting a little frustrated at that point. I was like, hey, let's just get to the point. Let's get to the meat of the situation here. I wanted to get to that one bill, specifically that bill was about letting teachers carry guns in the classroom.
But Representative Pearson in regards to the city charter kept asking about whether or not the city would be able to approve the state legislature's action. So the state legislature was going to approve this, it was going to be sent back to the city, and then they could take action on it if they so choose. The answer of course was yes. Well, the next bill was about the Nashville Sports Authority and the state taking partial control of that body without the consent of the local Nashville legislature. So there was no aha, I got you kind of moment, but if you were paying attention it was pretty clear that he was making a point about the duplicity at play here. Anyways, we finally made it to the item number representing the arming the teacher's bill. This was the big meaty moment, the thing that we had all been waiting for and something was about to go down. The people sitting next to us, Michelle, they were wearing orange armbands of course, around their arms.
Michelle Maldonado:
Yeah, I did notice that.
Ryan Dunn:
Yeah, and those were people who had volunteered to participate in some kind of direct action, some kind of invasive direct action. I don't know what it was, only the people I guess who were wearing the armbands knew what it was.
Michelle Maldonado:
I assumed they were probably the ones who were going to not volunteer it sounds terrible, but the ones that were okay with if if something goes down I will keep voicing and I'm okay with getting arrested.
Ryan Dunn:
Yeah, that's exactly it. I had attended a Moral Monday procedure ongoing in the past, and that's exactly what they did. So anybody who was willing to take that extra step, you went through some extra training. There's all kinds of policies that they have in place, and they'll take your cell phone for you and keep it so you don't have to go through the whole thing of checking out of the jail. You can just leave. And they had planned out later it's like, hey, we're going to wait for everybody to be released. We'll pick you up and bring you back here. So there's a lot of planning that goes into stuff like that. Well, in this case, these people were wearing orange arm bands, and as this bill was getting ready to be introduced, they were getting a little antsy.
They were looking around, I'm guessing that they were looking around for some kind of signal from leadership and obviously something was about to go down. Now it was approaching 8:00 PM, there was both tension and tiredness in the room of the general assembly. And then the legislative secretary, who is the house majority leader, moved that all additional agenda items be tabled until Wednesday morning.
Speaker 10:
Mr. Speaker, we have a large number of people that have been waiting patiently to hear this bill again and again. My parliamentary inquiry is this. I know after we are done here we will take up the flow motion. I want to know specifically when the bill that it's next up on the calendar that is going to attempt to arm the teachers in Tennessee, when that session will begin. The leader just said that the first of the calendar, but the public is very, very interested in this piece of legislation. So we're hoping [inaudible 00:45:24].
Ryan Dunn:
So the secretary introduced a motion to dismiss for the day and continue all business later on in the week, and the place went nuts, right? We'd all been waiting for this moment. The secretary actually went on to claim that he was unaware of what bill was coming next so that did not assuage any anger over the proposal. And of course, with any kind of legislative action, there's always debate about it. So even this proposal to just shut down for the day, arguments had to be made. I don't know who that representative was who was making the case for continuing on with the work and hearing the bill, but of course some counter-arguments were made. Most noting, as we heard that a lot of people traveled here in this time and place to hear this bill argued, and the crowd in the gallery certainly voiced their opinions as well.
We heard some of that that prompted the speaker at one point to threaten to clear the gallery. And eventually what happened was the bill sponsor moved that the bill be tabled and that was that, it was off the floor and the bill was actually now tabled until January of 2024. So that's where we are right now in this limital space, but the question pops up then so not just what is next for these bills, but what is next for this movement that has started with the Moral Monday? So for all the efforts and outrage, has anything actually changed? At the moment it seems like the status quo is prevailing, though there's a little hope for those who are wishing for change. After all this stuff went down, Tennessee Governor Bill Lee, who's a pretty conservative politician, has called for a special session of the general assembly in order to review gun safety legislation.
And in fact, this is the quote put out on the governor's website. "After much input from members of the general assembly and discussions with legislative leadership, we've decided to call a special session to continue our work to protect Tennessee communities and preserve constitutional rights. There's a broad agreement that dangerous unstable individuals who intend to harm themselves or others should not have access to weapons. We also share a strong commitment to preserving Second Amendment rights, ensuring due process, and addressing the heart of the problem with strengthened mental health resources. I look forward to continued partnership with the general assembly as we pursue thoughtful, practical solutions to keep Tennesseans safe." So that represents a little bit of movement towards the reforms called for by the special gathering and protests.
Michelle Maldonado:
Yeah, I do have a little bit of hope with that because they did adjourn for the year officially, I want to say last Friday I believe.
Ryan Dunn:
I think so.
Michelle Maldonado:
And people panicked like, oh my God, are we going to have to wait but no, this is a little bit hopeful. In regards to the movement overall, I think it's just going to keep getting stronger and stronger across the south because you look at the United States, who has the most problematic gun loss in general? We do down here. And I remember they shared some of the stats during the talks that they were having from the stage where this phrase, I don't remember exactly how they phrased it and it stuck with me, basically they said because of the number of weapons per person in the state of Tennessee, if the good guy with a gun were to actually do something and be helpful, Tennessee would be the safest state in the country. And that is just not fact.
Ryan Dunn:
Yeah, we've heard that argument already that we don't feel that more guns actually makes us safer. So with this forward movement, does the church disengage or do they/we keep pressing into the political realm? Well, here's what some of our participants had to say. Let's start with Reverend Ingrid McIntyre.
Ingrid McIntyre:
Well, I think that we have to step back even from before that moment and know that this is a movement that has already started. And my best advice is to be persistent and diligent in your showing up and to just say, use my gifts. Whatever group that's in your area, if there's not one, get a few friends together and start making some noise. Connect with other larger groups that can support you but this is the time to stand up. I often have wondered where would I be? Where would my friends be? Where would people I know be during the '60s during the civil rights movement? And this is it. It's happening in other spaces. It's happening in small spaces. And I would also say to people who are either not comfortable with direct action or protest that your part is showing up every day and making the just decision.
Ryan Dunn:
And finally we'll hear from Reverend Stacey Harwell-Dye.
Stacey Harwell-Dye:
So here's my hope going forward. My hope is that we can combine a lot of different efforts towards this and have bigger, more mass demonstrations going forward. My hope is that Moral Mondays continue. We are going to start a rotation of clergy here who care about this so that we can have our presence there from our church of folks who care about this issue and want to be involved. And my hope too is that when the cameras go away and when the big name speakers leave, that Nashville takes this on as our unique responsibility to our community and to our communities of faith, that we will continue to bear moral witness. Ultimately, it comes down to voters voting for people who say that they're going to do the things that line up with human flourishing for all people.
And so at the end of the day, I think we also need to be about protecting voter rights and protecting ways that people will vote. And so me and a group of folks that went to Montgomery on that pilgrimage that I referenced a little while ago are going to think about how can we as churches help be part of protection of voter rights so that we vote for folks and folks go there no matter what party they are, that care about these issues and care about continuing that witness in the state legislature?
Ryan Dunn:
Well, Michelle, what are your final thoughts?
Michelle Maldonado:
So I just wanted to reiterate the reason there was so many clergy and faith leaders present and leading this is because, and they said this, they are tired of hosting funerals for victims of gun violence. They are tired of having to console families dealing with this. They're tired of having to be that presence of peace in the midst of a crisis like this that's avoidable. And that just really stuck out to me because even though I'm a pastor's kid and I grew up in the church and I grew up seeing the life of a pastor, it hit close to home too because I get it. I get that tiredness and having to stay strong for that family over and over and over again periodically whenever there's another shooting, especially with kids. There's only so much these pastors can take before it starts to affect them.
Ryan Dunn:
I was struck by the reiteration that guns is one of the presenting issues, but it's not the issue, that we're talking really more about building policies and providing space for voices to be heard where people can advocate for their own flourishing. And I feel like it's important to underscore that and that work continues because, well, there is a call and a need for more voices to be present and heard and not just to silence those voices who we're disagreeing with.
Michelle Maldonado:
And although the focus was on gun control during this event, there was also the other conversations happening that it is all tied together, socioeconomics, race and ethnicity, that it's all tied together. One is the result of another. So even though we are discussing and talking about gun violence because it's what's right now on our minds because of the shooting at the school here in Nashville, it is all tied together and we are still working on all of that together. So this was an interesting departure from our normal compass format with a guest who has maybe a book or something coming up being released. I really enjoyed this discussion. We did go a little bit over our usual, but it was a really good topic to talk about.
Ryan Dunn:
And if you were into this episode, then check out episode 105 with Christian Collins Winn called Jubilee, Apocalypse and the Politics of Jesus. That's a good follow up. Or Episode 91 with Kevin Nye, also a good one. It's called Homelessness, Justice and Divine Disruptions. While you're listening, please leave a rating and/or review. Compass is a production of United Methodist Communications and comes out every other Wednesday so we'll be back chatting at you in two weeks' time. Peace.
