Join Bishop C. Andrew Doyle—Episcopal Bishop, author, and passionate vinyl record collector—and explore the sacred within the ordinary and the power of embodied spiritual practice. Bishop Doyle opens up about his latest book, "Unabashed Faith: Resisting Spiritual Forces in the Modern World," and shares practical wisdom on carving out sacred spaces, reclaiming rest in a hyper-connected world and finding spirituality beyond institutional boundaries.
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Together, Ryan Dunn and Bishop Doyle discuss what it means to experience faith in a so-called post-religious society, the importance of ritual and physical connection in spiritual life, and how practices like unplugging from technology or cherishing community moments can be deeply transformative. Whether it's the ritual of dropping the needle on a record or gathering for a simple meal, Bishop Doyle encourages us to see all of life as an invitation into deeper belonging and pilgrimage.
If you’re a spiritual seeker, exploring faith outside traditional religious settings, or simply curious about finding meaning in everyday moments, this episode will inspire you to embrace embodied contemplation and sacred connection right where you are.
Episode Notes:
Bishop Andrew Doyle is the ninth Bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Texas and a thoughtful voice in contemporary spirituality. Author of several books—including "Unabashed Faith: Resisting Spiritual Forces in the Modern World"—Bishop Doyle is known for his practical insights on faith, community, and the embodied life. He lives in Houston, Texas, where he continues his journey of spiritual exploration—on pilgrimage, and still walking.
In this episode:
[00:00] Spirituality and Connection with Bishop Doyle
[04:54] Embodied Rituals in Post-Religious Society
[09:20] Spiritual Seeking Beyond Religion
[11:06] Balancing Thought and Spirituality
[13:56] Sacred Spaces and Routines
[17:46] Modern Captivity and Worship
[21:06] Digital Economy and Social Disconnection
[26:05] "The Art of Being Present"
[29:51] "Embracing Sacrifice and Connection"
[32:46] Communal Sacramental Experiences
[36:42] Freedom in Faith: A Pilgrim's Journey
[39:39] Phone Addiction and Life Rules
[42:11] We Need Each Other
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This episode posted on May 28, 2025
Episode Transcript:
Ryan Dunn [00:00:00]:
Welcome to Compass, finding spirituality in the everyday. My name is Ryan Dunn. In this episode, I sat down with Episcopal Bishop Andy Doyle, author, church leader, and as it turns out, an avid collector of vinyl records. Bishop Doyle takes us behind the scenes of his personal spiritual practices from the soulful soundtrack that is currently shaping his days to the sacred spaces that he carves out for retreat and reflection. Bishop Doyle's latest book is Unabashed Faith, Resisting Spiritual Forces in the Modern World, and I was curious about how he would recommend spiritual contemplation and retreat in an age when we're always on and always connected, or at least when I feel a pressure to be always on and always connected. So how about you join us as we dive into the embodied experience of faith and ask big questions about the role of church and spiritual community in a so called post religious society. From the ritual of dropping a needle on a record to finding sacredness in ordinary places, bishop Doyle invites us to imagine a church that's less about institutional boundaries and more about belonging, connection, and pilgrimage. Andy Doyle lives in Houston, Texas.
Ryan Dunn [00:01:22]:
He is the ninth bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Texas, and he summarizes his autobiography in just six words. Met Jesus on pilgrimage, still walking. So pour yourself a cup of coffee, settle in, and join us as we explore the sacramental possibilities hidden in plain sight with Bishop Andy Doyle. Bishop Andrew Doyle, author, leader in the church, collector of vinyl, I think I read. Is that still the case?
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:01:53]:
That's true. It is.
Ryan Dunn [00:01:55]:
Alright. Awesome. Then, let's start off this way. Is there something that you've gotten recently that's in heavy rotation that is speaking to your soul or describing the the shape of your soul these days?
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:02:08]:
I hear the it's really interesting. I collect mostly, the goal is to collect mostly classic rock
Ryan Dunn [00:02:16]:
Yeah.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:02:17]:
And blues artists they were listening to. So I have a real specific genre. But the one that I've I've I have to be honest, the one I'm playing right now a lot is Nation of Two by Vance Joy. And, just as gotten it's real soulful, the whole album is. It's got a couple of songs that have done really well, but I find that the kind of there's a longiness in there that that has connected with me inside that. I'm, looked up to kinda think about what what would that look like if I were, honest about it. And that's where
Ryan Dunn [00:02:59]:
that's what
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:03:00]:
I'm listening to. I have I have different things I like to listen to, but then I also have this real, small collection of stuff I like to write with, which is is, also very much within that kind of genre.
Ryan Dunn [00:03:16]:
Okay.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:03:17]:
It's just easy easy to kinda go through.
Ryan Dunn [00:03:21]:
What is an example of one of your go to writing records?
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:03:27]:
There is a, the soundtrack so the soundtrack for, the movie, oh, you're gonna have to help me here. It had Bill Murray in it, and they were undersea, cinematographers. Team Zisu was the name. You
Ryan Dunn [00:03:57]:
That is a team time. Yes.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:03:59]:
I know. Really. Deep nice. Nicely played. Yes. Yeah. So, anyway, it'll come to me in a minute. But, yeah, that's, that's been the music on that soundtrack introduced me to a bunch of foreign music I've never listened to.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:04:14]:
And so and it just stayed with me. And so I've added some to it, but that, that basic soundtrack was just amazing. And it's mostly a guy singing on a guitar
Ryan Dunn [00:04:27]:
Oh, gotcha. On a guitar.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:04:29]:
That's it. I mean, it's not a lot of band music. It's really
Ryan Dunn [00:04:33]:
Kind of the the simplistic, conductive to contemplation style music. Right. Well, we're gonna have to do a a quick turn here. Otherwise, we're gonna go down a rabbit hole. We're gonna, like, explore, what'd you get a record day and, you know, what was your cartridge like and all that stuff. So Right. Let's switch to the theological, shall we?
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:04:54]:
Although You got it.
Ryan Dunn [00:04:54]:
I'll tell you what. I I feel like there is a bit of a carryover here in that, you talk a lot about embodied practice. And I think one of the things that led me back into engaging with something like like vinyl records has been the the physicality of it in in the sense that it's not just making music something that I consume while I'm doing something else, but in a sense, there's like a ritual to it and dropping the needle and looking at the at the cover and yeah. Holding out that gate fold and everything. So, so let's talk about that embodied religious experience a little bit. Now I wanna start with this. Our our society is is probably termed a post religious society. So with that in mind, for those who are existing kind of outside of the the space of institutionalized religion, like, how might you describe the importance of faith or the importance of religious experience to somebody like that?
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:05:57]:
Well, I think part one, one, and I'm I'm I'm very interested in the in that conversation about kind of the post religious society. But to to narrow down on this question of embodiment, we as we as human beings, exist within a body. And one of the things that we've we've had a hard time with this humans is seeing all bodies as important to who a person is. And typically, we've we've kind of, turned the body into an asset. So we we speak about relational economies. We talk about labor force. Right? Mhmm. And and and so we have a condomized the body and at the same time we've kind of divorce the brain from the body.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:07:08]:
But there's a whole cycle of interest within science and research that's saying, wait a minute, the brain doesn't operate alone at all. And and in fact, it doesn't even operate as a whole thing. It operates in relationship to itself. And so within the body, kind of to to just say that we're this very complex creature, and that that complexity is bumping into the world all the time. And that as it bumps into the world, it's trying to make sense of itself and the world around it. And so if we think about religion in a much broader sense as, for instance, like Emile Durkheim would have referred to religion in other ways other than the form, that it takes in a church. Mhmm. We're able to see, I think, we a bodily experience and that we then can see that actually we're not in a post religious time period.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:08:24]:
We may be in a post Christendom, where organized Christian religion doesn't hold as much of the embodied religion as other things, but people are on a spiritual quest. And if we ask ourselves how are they doing this while they're walking the Camino, they're going out into the wilderness and camping again. Mhmm. They are seeking spiritual experiences on mountain tops with groups of people. Like, our bodies actually are needing something here and that we are getting it from I actually think we get it from the it's we don't get it from sports, but we get it from being a part or the fandom of sports. We get it from the fandom of, RC cars. We get it from the fandom of vinyl records. We get it from the like.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:09:20]:
These the the things that we actually are gleaning from the world as we've left kind of Christian Christianity or, Islam or Judaism for this other thing, it doesn't mean that we're not spiritual seekers. We actually are doing it all the time. I think our body is really hungry for connection connection, belonging. And when and I think part of what the church doesn't do well is explaining that that's we're actually doing something here that's very similar to that on a regular basis. I think think the church has to stop hustling for it and actually needs to begin to live in it in a different way. But, yeah, I would just say, it doesn't matter who you are and where you you know, if you're listening to this today, it doesn't matter what your journey is at this moment. Actually, if you're listening, this is part of that seeking, and I think that's that's where the divine begins to do amazing things.
Ryan Dunn [00:10:18]:
Do you feel like the church has participated in the neglect of the body?
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:10:23]:
Yeah. Sure. If you think about think about the I mean, we can just talk about ourselves, but the whole confessional movement, from the middle ages as a response to kind of the scholasticism ism all in your brain. Right? And we see these things pop up. So in America, we saw two great awakenings, right, where people have this spiritual experience and then the church has to wrestle. Are you part of us, not part of like so I do think that we we have participated in this. I think that part of what's happened is that we got in our heads too much. We've been in our heads too much.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:11:06]:
And that that's what's really getting in the way. And, and certainly Jonathan Haidt and Ian, McGilchrist talk about this. We spend a lot of time in the thinking part of the mind. And so we've been nurturing this thinking part, but there really is another whole piece to us and our bodies that's important. And so I think that's where the church fell down. It's it's like the church kept doing what it was doing, and we sold everybody on what it was doing. But now what the hunger is, the church has to figure out how to talk about what it does and then do what people are looking for in a different way. So it's not to reject, not not to, like, completely move into all feeling.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:12:01]:
Right? There's a balance, I think, especially in our traditions. Like, there's a balance, of mindfulness as a Buddhist might say, but being able to talk, think, but also be aware of, where our bodies are. And and, you know, I think you see this particularly in the conversations Richard Rohr and others have been having around sacred space and finding that. And you find sacred space in your house. Right? Like, these are these are things we have we've forgotten to teach people. Mhmm.
Ryan Dunn [00:12:35]:
You
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:12:35]:
know, like, in the in the middle ages, you would come on, feast day and get your candles lit and take them home to your home sacred space where you would put them and you would light them during the time of thunderstorms to keep your house safe from lightning. So this is what candle mask was. But so Charles Taylor talks a little bit about it philosophically as, as white magic of the time. The church was involved. I would say the church isn't involved in helping your home have sacred community. Mhmm.
Ryan Dunn [00:13:24]:
And
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:13:24]:
yet at the same time, probably one of the most important things anybody, including myself, must do is find sacred space in their life on a regular basis for retreat from all of the connectedness and everything else. And I think tending to the body's own desire for rest and sabbatical Sabbath time. Right? This quieting down. I think we have to reclaim some of that. And certainly, this is in line with other people who are thinking out there.
Ryan Dunn [00:13:52]:
What kind of sacred space have you claimed in your life?
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:13:56]:
So, I mean, there are a couple of different places. There's a retreat center that I love to go to. I'm part of a a monastic, community as a fellow that supports them but also retreats with them. And and then in my home, there's sacred space, a place to sit, a place that is a place where I pray, and a a place where I can be quiet. And that, I think finding a thing, it's really important to our bodies, it turns out to to claim a space and then be in the space as a regular part of life. And that that routine actually helps us rest better and pray better or be quiet better. So in all the traditions, they would tell you, you know, and and sometimes it's around the kit the dining room table, kitchen table with your family, where you engage in quiet prayer. Like, so it's it can be all kinds of things.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:15:01]:
Again, the church has thought it had to be Sunday morning for an hour. The church has got it. This is what this is what this is the gift. This is the gift of what you call the post religious moment. The gift is to remind ourselves, no way that the the vine is everywhere. Mhmm. Sacred is everywhere. God is speaking to us all the time through all kinds and manner of things.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:15:24]:
It is it's, it's not just, like God created one time and it's not that clock maker. This is a God who's who's, infused or saturated the world. Right? And so all of us are speaking this language. We just don't know why what to do with it when it comes to institutional religion, but I think we're we're beginning to sort it down. We've got to listen too. We also have a great gift. You know, groups like that whether it doesn't matter which tradition you look at, Abrahamic Asian, Eastern, all of them will speak of this need for our bodies to do this this work. So I think that's, and we have wisdom about how to do it.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:16:14]:
So we ought to be sharing it and not as, hey, I'll share it so you can come to my church. We ought to share it because people are hungry for it. Yeah. And we know how to do it. If they come, fine. If they don't, fine. Let us bless them on a journey. How do we be a, you know, how are we a pilgrim, hospital? Yeah.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:16:33]:
Right? The the old hospitalers were not were not hospitals like we think today. They were respites. Yeah. Places to stop on your journey. How do we how's the church become that for people?
Ryan Dunn [00:16:44]:
I I've heard a
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:16:45]:
That's a big question.
Ryan Dunn [00:16:47]:
I've heard a term that the church can be, maybe in a modern analogy, the the airport. You don't come to the church as the destination. It's the stepping off point for
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:16:58]:
Right.
Ryan Dunn [00:16:58]:
Moving into that spiritual experience. We we've talked a lot about our, our embodied spiritual side of things. In the dualistic sense, there's a mind component of who we are as well, which creates the greater whole. In in Unabashed, you you talked about some of the ways that, I don't know if it's fair to say that we've disengaged the mind or retreated into the mind, but I was particularly drawn to this phrase that you used about the Babylonian captivity of the mind. Can you, talk with us a little bit about what that means?
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:17:33]:
Well, for those of you who don't know, it it refers to a time when people were conquered and taken away
Ryan Dunn [00:17:46]:
Mhmm.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:17:46]:
To Babylon, from their native land and from their primary worship space. And that, so that's what it refers to. And many theologians over the years have used Babylonian captivity to talk about this kind of separation Babylonian Babylonian captivity to talk about how, a set table that is God's how God provides wine and bread for people to actually eat and that you shouldn't withhold that from the people, right? And so so so that's the kind of to help with some sense of what I'm talking about there. And and what I would say is that we have, the mind has been taken over as the primary and only engaging part of our body. And it's it's being used quite literally used through social media, and this kind of constant connectivity. And, we've spent some time I think we spent some time in trying to sort of how that works. How do we provide just like those peep the people, the Jews who were taken away. Right? That this that that they had to figure out how to worship in that space of captivity.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:19:23]:
And so we've tried some of that, but the truth is that I, the prophet Isaiah who speaks to them says, no, you know, come home, too. So there's also this other piece that I think is that I think is really important is is the being homeness in our in our own bodies and realizing that we're not just a mind separate from, but holistically. And I and I so I've I've I've sensed that we've gotta reconnect our mind with our body in a real in a in a way that that we haven't done in a while. And so it's not just about quieting our body. I mean, our mind. It's not just about quieting our mind. We actually have to, like, be still. And so much of what we're looking for, I think what I look for, what I value, and I think people seem to be hungry for is actually finding that connectivity.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:20:21]:
And the truth is that connectivity is is related even though you're on Zoom and I can't be in the room with you. The the, the space that we inhabit so is is important. And our body, we need to claim the wholeness of that. But we also need to realize that right now, economics is based on getting our minds engaged and the body to follow. And sometimes we probably ought to be suspicious Mhmm.
Ryan Dunn [00:20:57]:
Of how
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:20:57]:
that data is mined, you know, as a as a as an economic force
Ryan Dunn [00:21:05]:
Mhmm. Tell me about that.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:21:06]:
By others. Right? So so we really are, Zuboff talks about, you know, this economy that's been created, that we have just we just all participate in and we give to generously of our time without any payment back. Mhmm. And that the truth is that only a few people in the world are gaining from all of our participation in all of that. And so what does that mean? And how do we reclaim that? And how do we reclaim being together? We used to say when when I first started ministry thirty years ago that our parents didn't know how to argue, so the divorce rate went up. They didn't know how to argue, reconcile, and so they would they would move on. So we had generations of people, latchkey kids, single parent homes, double parent homes, all that kind of stuff happening, which still goes on today. But today, I think what we've what we're inheriting is a world that's mediated through screens.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:22:13]:
And so, and which I do. I think it's part of the work now, but we also need to learn how to disconnect from them. And it's just as important as figuring out how to mediate and become partners in life, whether it's a group of people. So we have this massive force in our society, I think, like, we could look at politics, division, all that. If we just sat down at the table and began to actually get to know each other, things would change. I mean, I've I believe it. I really believe it. And so as long as we can kinda be parceled out and used as percentage numbers to gain more commitment from others, I think we're I think our minds are being abused in a way that our whole bodies are going to suffer.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:23:03]:
Mhmm. And so the only way to reclaim that's gonna be in togetherness.
Ryan Dunn [00:23:08]:
So you recognize that, our commitment to the screens has, in a sense, drawn us away from one another. And yet you also admit that, you know, you're still a participant in the in the digital realm, so to speak. Do you have some practices to recommend about disengaging then, finding that kind of spiritual retreat from it?
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:23:28]:
Yeah. I mean, I think the whole the I mean, every time we have our phone with us, that means that we are now able to be contacted by our bosses. We also are able to participate with others in social media. Now social media is feeding, as I've said, an economy. So to not participate is actually to set this down. So when I go home, a practice I have, I talk a little bit about this in the book, we just set this down. I'm not gonna carry it with me. Oftentimes, when my wife and I go out to dinner with people, I don't I don't take it.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:24:13]:
She can take hers or we can put this in the purse or whatever, but I'm not going to be attached to this while I'm in relationship with people. How do we, you know, how I was once with a person who's very wise, this in this wonderful woman, who I respect dearly said, how about we just be curious about that fact instead of finding out what it is exactly. Right? Like, so
Ryan Dunn [00:24:38]:
It's an incredible amount of patience, you know.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:24:41]:
Oh my god.
Ryan Dunn [00:24:42]:
I will tell you the answer.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:24:44]:
It will take you a month to walk in your house. If you really it's thirty days of practice. So if you want thirty days of practice, you walk into the house, plug it in somewhere in another room that you're not gonna be with the rest of your family and leave it there. And do not use it until you can check it before you go to bed. But like, that's the first thing is like, how do we take Sabbath from it? And I'm on social media all the time. So, you know, I don't wanna what what does it mean to sit at at and watch a movie together on television, but I'm on the phone. I'm not interacting with the movie or the people in the room. I'm interacting like this.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:25:21]:
Yeah. And and so I think that's the first piece. And so do you take this into your sacred space in your home? No. Can you leave it in the car when you go to church? If you go to church? Yes. Can you if you're going to your a studio to practice centering prayer or to a chapel, can you leave it behind? How do you I think this is a really big piece. It's not to say it's bad in and of itself. It's just to say, if we're the thing we're looking for actually can't be fulfilled bodily when we're only seeing everybody through a flat surface. A mediated this is a mediated surface.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:26:05]:
So I I that's a piece is how do you so the practice of being still in your own environment, the practice of sitting with others, the practice of sitting in a park by yourself with nothing, just being with the other people in the park. They might be doing other things but there's that is something that's happening. People will walk by and you can smell. You can see the reading books and be curious. I mean like, a whole you begin to take in a world that for me, the divine is speaking through directly in a way. But every time we add a layer, we are separating ourselves more. So if you think about the matrix, some of, the Chalmers work on consciousness, we begin to think about how these screens mediate us. Baudrillard's philosophy of, you know, this is a representation of us, but it's not really us, in the room together.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:27:11]:
And so we this is good, but it is mediated by something. Now take a still pick. Right? And we capture this. We put it on the podcast. Podcast gets shared through social media with the big thing, shows the two of us talking, whatever. Each step away has become a a repeated image that loses what we could have had in person. Right? So that's how you get the matrix movie. Right? They're they're playing with Baudrillard's Yeah.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:27:45]:
Philosophy. Right? The people the technology moved so much away that you you might prefer staying in the world Mhmm. That is fake versus staying in the real world that is dominated by a war. Right? Mhmm. Those of you who haven't seen the Matrix movies.
Ryan Dunn [00:28:04]:
Spoiler. I think we're okay to spoil at this point. It's been a while.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:28:07]:
At this point, yeah. That's on you all. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. But right, I mean, this is why I think, you know, this is why I think actually used clothing and eBay and things like that where you can get your hands on things that have been used. Right? Go on eBay and you buy a pair of traveling pants. Right? You may you may may not have ever seen that movie.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:28:37]:
Right? But the traveling pants. Right? Like, you get these things that are worn and used and have become beloved. And this is again just a way in which we're trying we're seeking for real connection. I don't I don't I don't want a new jacket. Mhmm. I want a jacket that was found in a garage sale that an 80 year old wore for forty years and has paint, little paint on it and some I mean, my gosh. What a privilege to wear that person's jacket. And,
Ryan Dunn [00:29:12]:
you
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:29:12]:
know, there's stories in there. And that's what I think we're seeking is is this with each other. I mean, you and I are engaging it right now. This is this is it. And it would be just a thousand times better except that we don't live in the same city. So we do the best we can. Right? But I have a whole world here and you have a whole world here that just is longing to be touched and smelled and all of our senses enlivened more and outside and
Ryan Dunn [00:29:42]:
You talk about sacrament being a form of resistance. Is is this part of what you mean it's it's a resistance too?
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:29:51]:
It is. So I feel like anytime we move towards each other or and I think I'm just speak generally given our audience, right? I mean, I think anytime we move towards people and are willing to sacrifice to be there, to be a part of the world and maybe sacrifice some of our comforts or change some of our comforts so that the world may exist in a healthy way. Anytime we do any of that work, we are resisting. And we are the world is, and we are vessels of the conversation that I think the divine wants to have with us. So I know I'm speaking from my own faith perspective here, but I I believe that's what's happening. And for me, Sacramento life, the life of bread and wine, of water of baptism, that language has a lot of meaning for me, but it works the same way. It's the way we would say it's closer. Like, it's more articulated for the sacramental church, the place where we imbibe and consume and see the the water.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:31:19]:
Tertullian's really ancient divine speaker said that the water of bath baptism should be like like water we live in and breathe and swim in like little fishes. And so it's just kind of an amazing way of thinking of sacrament in that way. And I would argue that humans, ultimately left our own devices will seek that Mhmm. In very real ways. The phone, the all of this is just a substitute for real in body human relationship. It takes us away from the original. Sometimes, like I've said, you know, it's the best we can do. But we need to remember that our lives really are sacramental breathing places.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:32:23]:
And what the churches do at their best is to say, ah, yes. There it is. You've gotten it. You've it's not about you becoming a member of this thing. No. You're swimming in the waters of the divine. Nice. This is what's going on for you, and you see it too now.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:32:46]:
So we're gonna we're gonna, like, swim in this water together, and I and I've done it, and now you're gonna do it. And what we know is that because people have seen that for us, that swimming can't be taken away forever and ever. That swimming in the water is true. And so I'm just curious about that conversation and that sacramental life. And I think when we get together for a pub crawl and we've got, like, the bread and the brew or the the walk we've got people, friends of ours who are walking, the Icknield Way in England or the paths in England or walking and hiking in park together. When you are doing that, those are sacramental moments that the divine speaks through. Now I think for me, each each step away is not as as good as it is with more people. But that's because when we're with more people, our our guard has us an opportunity to come down.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:33:58]:
Mhmm. And so sometimes I think you have to start with the divine by yourself, then maybe you got like one or two. Right? Kind of that Vance Joy thing, a nation of two. Right? Like you can begin to do that. Your guard comes down with these partners in our lives, these parents or substitute parents or, you know, substitute brothers and sisters. I mean, that's all the church is. It's like recognizing. We're just fumbling towards God together in these spaces at our best.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:34:30]:
And, anyway, I just think life is full of that and how when we get I'm so grateful for that. I'm grateful for the church I'm a part of, but not because it's the church. I'm grateful because, you know, you and I are visiting today. I mean, like, this is kinda kind of amazing.
Ryan Dunn [00:34:53]:
Yeah. What other introduction would we have had had it not been? Right? Yeah.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:34:58]:
Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Ryan Dunn [00:35:00]:
Yeah. And I like where you're going to because it, the church can feel daunting for people, especially think in thinking about the the institutional, side of church. And so Right. The idea that that church maybe is something that we, in broadening the idea of church as being sort of the community of people who are on this spiritual journey together. You know, it's something that we we snowball our way easily into just by broadening a sense of connection. Am I on
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:35:34]:
the right path here? Okay. I have a friend who says, why are you so down on the institution? As he said, you know, movements movements require organization. And that's true.
Ryan Dunn [00:35:47]:
Mhmm.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:35:47]:
That's true. There's no question about it. When you start getting more and more people and you wanna do things together, it requires organization. But the organization should always serve the very basic piece Yeah. Of that life together. And when it stops serving that, then the organization needs to reform itself a little bit. And unfortunately, organizations don't like to do that. But, they or they Yeah.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:36:14]:
They don't. They don't. They don't like change. And so so there's they struggle. They struggle. But at the core, and that and this is I mentioned this in this book that, you know, finding the place that you need for its time or a season may not be the place that you walk in the door the first time. You may want a real quiet service. I so I think people ought to really look for, you know, these kind of things.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:36:42]:
And if the church doesn't feel like coming together, then by all means, go. And if it becomes hurtful, go. I mean, there's you know, you're free. We're free. And sometimes I don't think we support each other in that freedom enough because we we regress into wanting to support the organization. But we should always remember the organization, like we talked about the very beginning is is like this pilgrim hut, where we can sit down for a while together and put some, plasters on our on our, aching toes. And I was really formed by my own journey in pilgrimage. I I, as a child when I went with my dad early on to travel about 20 to 30 miles a day on foot to, from the town we lived in to, the town of San Juan De Los Lagos, in Mexico.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:37:43]:
And and so those are I just that's a those are powerful images. And I think when you sit down with our friends at a table and break bread together, it's not the same as it might be in the church. But isn't that what we're also doing? I mean, I think as for me, it it moves into that space. When we break bread something happens when we eat together. And eating is messy by the way.
Ryan Dunn [00:38:15]:
It is. Right? I think that's right.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:38:17]:
Get it all over you.
Ryan Dunn [00:38:17]:
I think it's the vulnerability of that.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:38:19]:
It is. It's so right. And I know that not everybody is, I'm an extrovert. I know that not everybody is, you know, really does this. Some people need a lot more more alone time to be able to do the other. But even monastics recognize that that you have to be with others. The only ones who don't are solitaries who live off by themselves. It's a very particular small group, right, of divines who are able to to do that particular spiritual work.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:38:57]:
So those all of those are just organizational models for what we're talking about in general for, you know, the people that we're talking with today. They're sitting there. They're listening listening to us. It's great to have you on the podcast and wherever you are in your journey. Right? But we're just going along together.
Ryan Dunn [00:39:18]:
The spiritual practices provide a a sense of going along. And, of course, pilgrimage is a wonderful example of that, and is a spiritual practice. In in Unabashed, you you lift up a spiritual practice with every chapter. Was there one that maybe you discovered in the process of putting this book together?
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:39:39]:
The one that that I will tell you, and it's the one we've already talked about, that, I found that I had I had a rule about my phone. I had a rule of life about my phone that I had done successfully for a long time and I had gotten away. And so the book, you know, what the book describes is something I had done for years. But but we all might remember except unless you're really young, this is a new technology, so it's taken in my lifetime. Right? So considering that I had a beeper when my first child was born in in the nineties. Right? So so it's it's been a slow move, but with that move and its expansion, I found I've been on the phone more. Right? I can't let go of it more. Like, all of that, I need to know what's happening more.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:40:30]:
My wife wife calls it doom scrolling. She one of her spiritual practices is to post every day a rest from the what is it? Rest weary traveler from your doom scrolling meme. Mhmm. Right? And she puts a cool picture up every day. But like that's a whole to so I had to reengage. It's like, oh man, I can't talk. I need to be doing this. It was so good when I did it and it's fantastic And it can be lonely when other people around you don't do it, but that's okay.
Ryan Dunn [00:41:02]:
Yeah.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:41:02]:
I think it's okay.
Ryan Dunn [00:41:05]:
Yeah. Be the first to start the snowball. Yeah. It's okay.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:41:09]:
It's okay. Just start over. Yeah. Start over. I don't think I just think, come on. We gotta give each other a break. We're just we are not gonna be perfect in this life and the spiritual discipline are just like everything else. Every hobby we have, everything that we commit ourselves to or these longings being expressed in our life.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:41:32]:
And so prayer life and the pilgrimage, life of the pilgrim are the same thing. And, you know, you're if you think about a hobby that you have, do you have hobbies?
Ryan Dunn [00:41:42]:
Well, yeah. I mean, I'm searching for those vinyl records as well.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:41:46]:
And Oh, yeah. Right. Right. So you, like, you you it takes time. You gotta go, like, to the shop. You gotta maybe I like it better when they, there's a vinyl collector's gathering every quarter here in Houston. I love going there and there are people I see and talk to and Yep. Right? Like, we have to work on those things and sometimes I buy a record and I make a mistake because it's already in my collection.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:42:11]:
Right? Or like, okay so what do you do with that? Well you do things and spiritual life's just like that. And I think we have to give the people who unfortunately, I think we have to give each other a break in our churches so that we could be reminded and some of this is just to remind ourselves and everybody else who comes to it like, oh my gosh. It's hard. Life is really hard and it and it doesn't matter what economic station you're at, truthfully. You we all have real struggles and, we can help each other in those struggles. And I actually kind of think across the fullness of our embodied life together, actually we kinda need each other regardless of what the class is. The the problem is that we silo up so easily that we actually aren't able to contribute to each other's lives, the very things that we search for.
Ryan Dunn [00:43:10]:
Well, Bishop, thank you so much for taking this time to, to share with us in so many different perspectives. The book is coming out June. People can probably find you at various Episcopal churches around the the Texas area. Where is the spot for them to to look you up online
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:43:32]:
for more information? Go to the church publishing website, but it's on all the major book selling platforms online. And we, you can certainly walk into a bookstore and see if they'll order one for you. If it's not there, it'll be available for them to do so. And I would encourage that. I, certainly, I'm a, a book purchaser, and a a bibliophile, but I would encourage you to buy from your small store, see if they can order it for you. And if it costs a little bit more, remember you're contributing to local economies and that's really important as as we go through this. But, yeah, it's all it should be everywhere for you. I just got the first hard copy.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:44:20]:
Oh, wonderful. Yeah. It's really nice. Looks like this. Comes with a hardback and nice paper. It's a great book. Of course, I'm I'm, you know, I'm injured. Well, look.
Ryan Dunn [00:44:31]:
It's oftentimes we're our own worst critics. Right?
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:44:34]:
So if you can say, yeah. Yeah. I'm really pleased. I think it turned out pretty good. I'm like, wow. That's not a our space has meaning. That's on page 13. The sacred chosen space, not just the objects in it.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:44:47]:
Right? Like, that's a wow. Okay. I wanna maybe I'll stay with Andy, you have some good ideas. Maybe I should learn from you. It's it's I have to say it's a real vulnerable place to to offer that because I'm showing some of my own spiritual life, which I you know, one on one people ask me about that it is vulnerable to say, here's how I I do this work for myself. Sanity.
Ryan Dunn [00:45:14]:
Yeah. But as a preacher, you probably recognize that oftentimes the most profound thoughts come out of the places where you're, in a sense, preaching to yourself.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:45:23]:
Exactly. I always say it's good to when somebody tells me I've done a good sermon, I said, thank you so much. It's good to not embarrass the family that you're with. And normally, if I really am honest about where my heart is on that day, normally, there's one or two other people in the room who can journey with me in it. That's that's a wonderful thing to hear some of that back. Yeah. I I appreciate you, Ryan. Thank you for for having me on your on your podcast.
Bishop Andrew Doyle [00:45:51]:
I really am excited about, the work and, excited about our greater work together, which Mhmm. That we're doing here in Texas with others, in the Methodist, world. And, this but I think this is your podcast is a real gift to people.
Ryan Dunn [00:46:10]:
Oh, thank you. That's a wrap for this episode of Compass, Finding Spirituality in the Everyday. I wanna extend a special thank you to Bishop Andy Doyle for such a thoughtful and wide ranging conversation. And of course, to all of you for joining us on this journey. If you'd like to dig just a little bit deeper into today's discussion or to check out more episodes of Compass, visit our website at umc.org/compass. There, you're gonna find episode notes, resources mentioned in our conversation, and plenty of other episodes to inspire your own spiritual journey. We'd also like to thank the amazing team at United Methodist Communications for making this podcast possible. They're the folks behind the scenes bringing Compass to life each week.
Ryan Dunn [00:46:56]:
And if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe, rate, and review Compass on your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback helps others discover the show and to join this growing community. Thanks again for listening. Wherever you are on your spiritual journey, we're grateful to be walking alongside you. Until next time, keep exploring. Peace.
