Niceness in church communities can sometimes conceal deeper issues of injustice. It's important to disrupt the status quo and engage in conversations about patriarchy, inequality, and systems of oppression.
In this episode, you probably want to listen for the ways in niceness, though well-meaning, can be a hindrance to equality and justice. Also listen for the word “complementarianism” and how its practical application can limit everybody.
Liz Cooledge Jenkins is a writer, preacher, and former college campus minister with degrees from Stanford University (BS Symbolic Systems) and Fuller Theological Seminary (MDiv). v). She believes that people, faith communities, and religious traditions are at their best when they're always forming and re-forming - open to change, learning, growth, and transformation. She wants to live out a feminist, antiracist, inclusive, community-oriented, earth-healing kind of Christian faith.
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Episode notes
Nice Churchy Patriarchy, Liz's book, is available on December 1, 2023.
Liz writes on her own website. Check out her blog.
She also blogs on Patheos, a popular site for articles about religion and spiritual beliefs. Some of our favorite articles include:
- What does it mean to say "We believe"?
- What's a good person, anyway?
- Faith is a practice, not a belief statement
In this episode:
(00:00) Let's meet Liz Jenkins
(03:54 Hierarchy, church patriarchy, feminism in media.
(08:41) A first stand against biases
(11:54) Niceness can hide injustice and hinder change.
(17:22) Understanding Paul's writings in modern context.
(18:41) That time when the Hebrew midwives defy pharaoh to save boys.
(21:51) Hopes to help church and community.
(25:10) Words of wisdom and gratitude for conversation.
Compass is a production of United Methodist Communications.
Related episodes
- Linking love and justice with Otis Moss III
- Rewiring your brain with Caroline Oakes
- Healing our divides with Amy Julia Becker
- Creating change when stuck in the same with Tony Caldwell
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This episode posted on November 29, 2023
Episode Transcript:
Ryan Dunn:
This is The Compass Podcast, Finding Spirituality in the Everyday. Welcome back. My name is Ryan Dunn. We're gonna have a conversation with Elizabeth Coolidge Jenkins today centered on patriarchy and church, women's agency, and reexamining some Traditional interpretations of scripture. It's an enlightening use of time. I guarantee it. While Michelle Maldonado wasn't available for this podcast Recording, we would both appreciate it if you took a moment to leave a rating and or review of Compass. Having people share Thoughts helps us hone in on delivering valuable content for you, and it helps potential guests decipher if this podcast is the right fit for them.
Ryan Dunn:
So your thoughts in the form of a review are really, really appreciated. Let me tell you a bit About Liz Jenkins. She believes that people, faith communities, and religious traditions are at their best when they're always forming and reforming. It's a process of improvement. I totally agree. Liz is a writer, preacher, and former college campus minister with degrees from Stanford for university and for Theological Seminary. Her book, Nice Churchy Patriarchy, is due out later this week. Like well, actually, tomorrow as of release of this podcast, but that's December 1, 2023, to be exact.
Ryan Dunn:
So you can likely pick that book up from your favorite seller right now. In this episode, you probably wanna listen for the ways in which niceness, though well meaning, can be a hindrance to equality and Justice. Also, listen for the word complementarianism and how its practical application can limit everybody. And if you're ready, let's get to it. Conversation about niceness, patriarchy, and a bit of advice about writing with Elizabeth Coolidge Jenkins. Okay. We're talking about, well, patriarchy and church institutions and all kinds of fun things like that. So it's gonna get a little heavy today.
Ryan Dunn:
But, Liz, before we get into that, let's start with a softball question. How goes it with your soul today?
Elizabeth Jenkins:
Is that a softball A softball question.
Ryan Dunn:
Not a softball question. No. That's kinda deep. That always takes people back. That's kinda deep. No.
Elizabeth Jenkins:
Well, first, thank you so much for having me on this podcast. I'm really excited about it. The soul is complicated. Definitely excited For the book launch that's happening in just a couple weeks now, definitely at the same time, deeply disturbed by everything happening in Gaza and around the world. So this all is a complicated thing. Happy to be here talking to you and also just acknowledging that this is Not an easy time in our world. Yeah.
Ryan Dunn:
Yeah. No. Yep. Yes. I don't know what else to say to that except, yes. We're we're feeling it. Like, it feels, it's just kind of, well, I don't know if it's right to say that it feels wrong to find Moments of joy in in connection in the midst of all that's going on, but in a way that is our, like, our human condition. So, and and we need to talk about that in a little bit in an institutional sense as we start talking about the church and some of the ways that we find joy and connection there, and yet also, realize that we are not where we should be yet and that we are called to to something more.
Ryan Dunn:
So we're doing that today through the lens of talking about patriarchy. You talked about the book that you have coming out. When is that due out? Yeah.
Elizabeth Jenkins:
It comes out on December 1st.
Ryan Dunn:
Okay. It's called Nice Churchy Patriarchy. That's not just a nice catchy title, however. Can you there's a lot of thought that went into it. There's some double meaning going on there. So can you share with us a little bit about where that title came from?
Elizabeth Jenkins:
Yeah. Totally. I mean, I think maybe the topic of page hierarchy in general has gotten a little bit more airtime with the Barbie movie that came out This summer and all that, so I feel like that was a really good kind of feminism 1 on 101, get people thinking about things. And so the book deals specifically with the churchy varieties of patriarchy and, what forms that can take in church environments and religious Communities. That's, you know, that's my experience. That was my twenties going to a church that had some explicitly patriarchal structures and systems and And lots of attitudes for sure. And so and then the nice part of that, the nice churchy patriarchy, I feel like I was pretty Fortunate to not be involved in some of the worst of patriarchal church environments. I feel like we've seen, like the documentary, Shiny Happy People, and that kind of thing, exposed some of those very extreme, patriarchal environments.
Elizabeth Jenkins:
And the churches that I've been a part of were were full of good people, nice people, kind people, people who are really doing their best to serve God and love people and, yeah, who interpreted scripture in particular ways that I think are really damaging. So that's That's kinda what I'm trying to get at the get out with the title, those kind of subtler forms that patriarchy can take in church communities and what we can do about that.
Ryan Dunn:
Yeah. Well, so it sounds like you came up in a church tradition where maybe women were elevated into leadership. That's the tradition that that I'm speaking out of as a United Methodist. You know, we claim that well, we've been ordaining women to leadership since 19 fifties. It's well before my lifetime. So, like, problem solved. Right? What's the issue? And yet, talked to most people, and there's Still a sense that, well, patriarchy exists within this institution, and patriarchy exists at large In our churches, how are some of the ways that, well, you've encountered patriarchy showing up in that kind of, like, Nice churchy atmosphere or that you still see it existent in the institutions at large, even those that, you know, claim that well, we hammered that out a long time ago.
Elizabeth Jenkins:
Yeah. Totally. So just for a little bit of context, I grew up in the Presbyterian PCUSA church tradition. So that's also one that has been ordaining women for decades. And then in my young adulthood, I wandered into more of evangelical spaces, some of which did not approve of women in ministry, at least not in all of the different forms that that can take. And so by the time I wanted to go To seminary, I was pretty frustrated with that, and so I I sought out a seminary that was fully egalitarian and that has been, made women into all of their programs since before I was born. So, that was really good and really a relief in some ways. And I think it took me a minute to realize that at the same time, just because women were fully welcomed into those programs, didn't mean that those programs were always a comfortable space to Me as
Ryan Dunn:
a woman.
Elizabeth Jenkins:
Mhmm. So, yeah. I think there's a lot of different directions we could go with the conversation about what forms patriarchy takes. I think some of the things I get into in the book are, those casual comments that people make Sometimes there were casual comments that professors would make that made me feel unwelcome as a woman in seminary even though that was not at all their intention. There's the way that women's voices are listened to or not listened to, and I really felt That and the egalitarian church community that I was a part of during that time. So, yeah, I think there's there's ways that we still need to learn how to share Power more fully even if there's no explicit restrictions on what roles women do or don't have.
Ryan Dunn:
Let's talk about the the comments a little bit because I I feel like this is one of the spaces where even those of us who claim to be a little bit more enlightened and definitely, you know, Strive to be in the nice group, can still be guilty of this kind of liminalization. And, so I within the The, within the seminary in context where, you know, you're in this space where you're being trained and elevated towards leadership, What were some of the comments that you did hear that were still kind of retractive? Yeah.
Elizabeth Jenkins:
Well, one of the stories that I reflect on in the book, involves a time that I tried to push Back a little bit on something that one of my seminary professors was teaching, and I mean, I'll spare you the the details, but, It was something that felt important to me that I felt was missing from the perspective that he was sharing. And so I was I was very nervous about it because I'm not really a person who really enjoys conflict or publicly challenging people, but this felt really important to me. So I raised my hand and tried to say a few things, and I was very aware at the time that I I think that that nervousness showed. Like, I feel like in my face and, like, my hand's probably shaking a little bit, and, I don't know if I fully articulately expressed what I meant to, but I tried, and I felt good about trying. Right? And, the general topic of the conversation was about money and fundraising and our approach to that and who is centered as we think about these things. And so I so the professor, this male professor, Heard out what I was trying to say and then kind of took a step back and laughed a little bit and was like, well, this is why, as I was saying, it's so Hard to talk about money. People get so angry and frustrated about it so easily. And to me, that was that was an Excuse not to address the concerns that I was trying to raise, and I felt like it was a very gendered response even though I don't think that that was This professor's intention, I couldn't help but find myself wondering, would he have responded that way to a male student who'd raised some similar concerns? And, yes.
Elizabeth Jenkins:
So it kind of I think stories like that can get us reflecting in on how emotion is perceived differently across genders, what kind of Emotions people are allowed to express or not express, how anger is perceived differently, How women are easily written off as overly emotional, whereas maybe if a man had said some similar things, it would have been like, oh, it's great that he's so passionate about this cause. So those are some of the things that come to mind.
Ryan Dunn:
Yeah. Well and that's just a a glimpse at how ingrained Some of this can be. Right? Yeah. It's it's on a subliminal level in in some aspects, yeah, where even people who are, I guess active in trying to confront that can still hold these assumptions. Well, not assumptions, but enculturations about, about roles. And you mentioned in in getting out that, you know, you're a little shy about the confrontation and a little bit nervous. And that is familiar for a lot of us because we just wanna be nice people, and there's something unpleasant about being confrontational. Hey.
Ryan Dunn:
But you've noted in in your work that niceness can actually sometimes be detrimental, especially in relation to, like, Issues of justice and inequality. How does niceness sometimes contribute to this damage or harm?
Elizabeth Jenkins:
Yeah. I think that that niceness is often sometimes not so much Kindness, which I'm all for as it is about conflict aversion or aversion to tension or aversion to change. And I think that sometimes, in in churches or other kinds of communities that really value niceness and tightness and kind of everything moving along easily and without much tension. I think there can often be issues of injustice that simmer beneath the surface And, that just kind of can go on for a long time without being addressed because it seems like anyone who's trying to address them is is breaking that code of politeness or niceness, and kind of breaking that sense of unity. But, really, the unity is shallow. It's not, Like, real unity if there's injustice that's lurking underneath, whether that's patriarchy or white supremacy or any of the different issues of injustice that still linger. So, yeah, I think sometimes it takes disrupting that status quo, but that can be a hard thing to do in communities that value that, Yeah. That pretense of, like, everything's going great.
Elizabeth Jenkins:
We're all on the same page.
Ryan Dunn:
Okay. Well, now you've written this whole book as a disruption to some of the nicety. Are there ways that you've, like, built yourself up or girded yourself to take this step into speaking out in such a public way?
Elizabeth Jenkins:
Oh, that's a great question. I think that it's been really crucial for me at this point in my life to have a church community that's supportive of the that I'm trying to express. If I were still in a complementarian church environment or a church where people weren't sure whether women should be fully equal Oh, to men. That would be different, and that would be very hard. So, yeah, I think having that supportive community has meant a lot. Having just time to process a lot of the experiences has meant a lot, and just reading a lot of female faith writers. When I graduated from Seminary. I went on a very intentional search for, like, in all of our male dominated readings, who did we miss? And so I've spent the last 4 years since I graduated really intentionally seeking out female writers, and, I think that's really helped me feel like I'm not alone in thinking about things this way.
Elizabeth Jenkins:
That gives me some lenses to process things through, and that's been really helpful.
Ryan Dunn:
So who have you discovered?
Elizabeth Jenkins:
Oh, so many. There's, like, a way too long list of them in the book. I tried to keep it short, but it was difficult.
Ryan Dunn:
Yeah. Well, so to get the full list, we need to get the book. But a couple of highlights might be good.
Elizabeth Jenkins:
Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I I really have enjoyed the work of Rachel Held Evans, of Sarah Bessey, more recently, Cole Arthur Riley, from a not necessarily faith based perspective, but writing about Race and gender and US society in general, I think Britney Cooper, Andy Joma Oluo have been really good. Yeah.
Ryan Dunn:
Cool. Thank you. You brought up a word in that last an answer that I wanna unpack a little bit. Complementarian.
Elizabeth Jenkins:
Yeah.
Ryan Dunn:
In a church context, what does that mean?
Elizabeth Jenkins:
Yeah. Yeah. So complementarianism is, it's basically a way of saying that men and women have equal value or worth before god, but should have different roles or functions in church leadership and also usually in marriage or relationships. Oops. So often in complementarian churches, there are different limitations placed on what women are allowed To do or not do, whether that's preaching or being an elder or different leadership positions. And, more of those lines are drawn depends a lot on the church. Yeah.
Ryan Dunn:
Okay. Alright. Well, that leads us to the not nice question then. And sometimes well, in these these churches, who are in that realm are are probably quoting out of scripture, for why they do their practice as they do. In the in the Bible Can be not nice. We've heard of clobbered passages in regards to to LGBTQ people. There are also clobbered passages in regards to women and especially women in leadership, specifically out of writings that are attributed to Paul. Yeah.
Ryan Dunn:
So what do we do with Those quote, unquote clobber passages today.
Elizabeth Jenkins:
Yeah. It's a good question. I think The term clobber passages is helpful because it reminds us that the whole of scripture is very Rich and diverse and much more than the small set of passages that people pick out to support particular viewpoints. So I think it's been helpful for me just to recognize that the scriptures are really mixed. And I think there's a lot of mixed messages For women, also for queer folks, but that's probably a different conversation for another time. And so I think I think it's it's just really Good to make note of all of the actual women in the bible and not just the things that Paul says about women and what they should or shouldn't be doing. Because I think when we look at the stories of women in scripture, we see all sorts of women exercising their agency. We see women Seeing their power, embracing their worth as children of God.
Elizabeth Jenkins:
And yeah. So we have to kind of wrestle with that. Like, How do we hold that together? These things that Paul says that seem to be limiting, and then what's actually happening with women leading in all sorts of ways. So I think there's that aspect to it kind of, I don't wanna say balancing, but, like, not ignoring those other parts of scripture. And then I think there's the aspect of looking at the time and place and cultures that Paul was writing to, looking at how people might have heard those passages that seem limiting in that Context and, I think when we do that and, Beth Allison Barr does a lot of this in the making of biblical womanhood, so that's a resource for that for anyone who wants to explore more. But I think when we do that, we find that the things that Paul was saying were liberating in his Context relative to kind of Greco Roman culture, he was saying things that were that were liberating and empowering for women. So if we're not having that same kind of relationship to our culture, if we're actually if some churches are pushing back Against women's liberation, that's not really what scripture is doing.
Ryan Dunn:
Okay. You talked about Up the the witness of women in scripture, are there some favorites that you have, some favorite stories?
Elizabeth Jenkins:
Oh, totally. Yeah. I think I I go into this a little bit in the book, fairly briefly, but I think the story of the Hebrew midwives in Exodus is really powerful. There's these 2 women who basically defy the orders of pharaoh To kill all the baby boys. Right? And they even go as far as basically lying to government officials about what they're doing. So I think it's a really powerful story of resistance, of women recognizing that things are not right, and choosing to do What they believe is right. So there's stories like that. I think there's there's also a lot of stories just of women leading in the New Testament.
Elizabeth Jenkins:
I think of the Husband wife team, Priscilla and Aquila, wife and husband if I put in that order, but, and how they they taught Apollos, who was a famous preacher in Acts, and so they were basically, like, the kind of awesome female seminary professors that I had A few of, but wish I'd have more of 2000 years later. So, yeah, there's stories of women in all sorts of different Diverse roles using their gifts in all sorts of different ways and exercising their agency, and I think that's beautiful.
Ryan Dunn:
Well, let's talk a little bit reactive today or actually proactive today. I mean, obviously, you've taken a big step in speaking out about this and writing an entire book about it. But what are some action steps that you'd like to see some church members take to broaden their awareness or maybe even move towards confronting in a not nice way, the patriarchal inequalities.
Elizabeth Jenkins:
Yeah. That's a good question. I think it depends a ton on the church and on the community and where they're at. I think some of the things that I've experienced is really powerful in church are, when churches in their songs and liturgy acknowledge more of the variety of different images and metaphors for God that we find in Sure. Because, sure, we have lots
Ryan Dunn:
of fun. Just, like, falling back into, like, he pronouns. But
Elizabeth Jenkins:
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Exploring She pronouns exploring they from and just exploring different images like, Jesus when he compares himself to a mother hen, or God in the book of Isaiah, when God is compared, to, like, a nursing mother or mother with her infant, there's a lot of a lot of feminine imagery, a lot of mothering imagery. And I think that can be really powerful, not because every woman identifies with those sorts of things, but because it just presents a different image and a different side of God that's very much in scripture, and I think we miss out without it.
Ryan Dunn:
Let's talk a little bit about your practice of ministry today. So you went to Seminary, and I think a lot of us carry an idea in our minds that, you know, when somebody goes through seminary, they're gonna become, this traditional role pastor, which involves, like, speaking from a pulpit every Sunday morning. That isn't what your practice of ministry looks
Elizabeth Jenkins:
like. Correct?
Ryan Dunn:
So how would you sum up, like, what you're doing in administration?
Elizabeth Jenkins:
That's a good question. I mean, I'm full time writing. So, my hope as a writer is very much to do a lot of the same things that I think that pastors hope for in their ministries. I hope to Help the church think about things. I hope to use that seminary education and at least the parts of it that I found really helpful and And share that more broadly, with people who might not, have the privilege of spending 3 3 years of their lives doing that kind of thing. So, yeah, I hope to help help churches and communities that are open to it move toward justice more fully and more Full equality for all people. So, yeah, I'm I'm writing toward those aims, and that's what I hope the book is about. And I also blog and, you know, put different articles out there, different places, and I hope that it's all helping people, See a god of love and a god of justice and maybe a god that's different from the god that we sometimes hear about and that kind of thing.
Ryan Dunn:
Well, Switching gears a little bit and talking about your practice of writing for our prospective writers out there. Has there been a Training that you've done or an area that that you've worked through that's been really helpful in terms of, like, developing writing and developing a audience For your writing?
Elizabeth Jenkins:
It's a good question.
Ryan Dunn:
Take your time.
Elizabeth Jenkins:
I mean, I really didn't know What I was doing when I started. So I feel like I did things pretty backwards in terms of writing a book and then trying to figure out how to get it Published, which it turns out that, you know, you can't really get a book published if nobody has heard of you and
Ryan Dunn:
your writing. So, oh, no. Okay. You have to build
Elizabeth Jenkins:
the audience. Yeah. So I think that, I mean, that's that was kind of the motive for starting to try to get other articles out there, but it's turned out to be a really good journey that's been meaningful way beyond just Trying to get a book published. So, yeah, I don't know if I really have helpful advice. But I think just finding finding the right, like, websites and magazines where people you're trying to connect with, are are looking for for that. Right? So I I think it just took me a while to find those spaces where my work was resonating, But I think it's worth doing because I think there are a lot of spaces and people who are really trying to rethink faith and justice and God and theology and everything. And I think it's really exciting to be able to do that together. So yeah.
Ryan Dunn:
And where can we find some more of your work?
Elizabeth Jenkins:
Yeah. Liz coolidgejenkins.com is probably the best place to start because I blog there, and then I also have a list of other articles there as well as info about the book. I'm also pretty active on Instagram at liz cool j, so I'd love to connect there too.
Ryan Dunn:
Alright. Excellent, handle there, by the way. I'm surprised you were able to get it. Very cool. Alright. Well, thank you so much for for joining us. Any, parting shots or, ideas of wisdom you wanna part or Bestow upon the audience before we sign off.
Elizabeth Jenkins:
Words of wisdom, but thank you so much for having me. I hope this conversation is helpful. I hope that, anyone who is thinking deeply about women and gender and God and faith and gender roles and femininity and All those things, finds the book helpful and encouraging, and I hope it's just a good reminder that people who are Troubled by the way that women are often treated in churches are not alone. They're not making a big deal out of things that aren't a big deal. It is a big deal. Full equality and justice is a big deal. So, thank you for the space to talk about that.
Ryan Dunn:
Yes. Thank you for joining us on this episode of Compass. Thanks to Elizabeth Coolidge Jenkins. Hey. If you found this episode meaningful, episode 110 with Otis Moss the third is a good one about linking love and justice. Also, I think episode 101 with Carolyn Oakes pairs well with this episode with a good mind. Episode 101 is about rewiring Bring your brain through spiritual connections is eye opening. I'm Ryan Dunn.
Ryan Dunn:
Michelle and I will be back in another 2 weeks with a fresh episode of Compass. Compass is a production of United Methodist Communications. You can find out all about it and see notes and Other episodes at umc.org/compass. I'll talk to you in a couple weeks.
