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Curious about maintaining compassion and engaging in meaningful conversations in your daily life? On Compass 133, join Ryan Dunn as he speaks with John Pavlovitz about finding common ground and exploring spirituality amidst life’s challenges. Discover how to navigate differences with empathy, find solace in nature, and embrace your faith journey authentically.
John shares his personal journey from questioning his Christian identity to embracing a compassionate approach that transcends religious and ideological boundaries. We'll explore the need for human connection beyond political or religious labels and John's latest endeavors including his work on grief, his online community Empathetic People Network, and his new book "Worth Fighting For."
John Pavlovitz is a pastor, writer, and activist from Wake Forest, North Carolina. In the past several years his blog, Stuff That Needs To Be Said, has reached a diverse worldwide audience. A 20-year veteran in the trenches of local church ministry, John is committed to equality, diversity, and justice. His books include: If God Is Love, Don’t Be a Jerk, A Bigger Table, Hope and Other Superpowers, Low, Rise, Worth Fighting For and Stuff That Needs to Be Said.
Episode Notes:
Check out the site where it all began for John: Stuff that needs to be said (JohnPavlovitz.com). A couple of Ryan's favorite posts include:
- A pastor's apology to survivors of Christian trauma
- What to do when you think you're losing your faith
You can also find out more about the Empathetic People Network -- an online community of like-hearted human beings who believe that empathy is the better path.
In this episode:
(00:00) Compass explores spirituality in a divided world.
(04:54) Encouraging resource for empathetic people feeling tired.
(08:39) Approach differences with curiosity, seek genuine connections.
(10:18) Connecting with others, making an impact.
(14:23) Grew up with Catholicism, values compassionate activism.
(19:47) The church's relevance amidst changing community dynamics.
(21:53) Questioning church's injustices, seeking truth in teachings.
(26:17) Artist's role: reveal beauty in ordinary things.
(28:15) Empathetic People Network: Connecting on Commonalities and Support.
Related episodes
- Faith vacations and lost-ness with Debie Thomas
- Nice church, not nice patriarchy with Liz Cooledge Jenkins
- Linking love and justice with Otis Moss III
- Why people are leaving church
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- Email our hosts Ryan Dunn about future topics and feedback.
More podcasts
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Thank you for listening, downloading, and subscribing.
This episode posted on May 29, 2024
Episode Transcript:
Ryan Dunn [00:00:04]:
Welcome back to Compass, finding spirituality in the everyday. I'm host Reverend Ryan Dunn. And for this episode of Compass, I sat down with guest John Pavlovitz, a writer, a pastor, and speaker to discuss peacemaking amidst polarization. John shared insights from his new book which is called Worth Fighting For and reflected on the importance of empathy, bridge building, and speaking truth in a divisive world. From exploring the essence of heavy metal music, those kinda at my urging, to the transformative power of grief, John offered a perspective on spirituality that transcends boundaries. So join us, will you? As we discuss the art of finding common ground in a divided world. If you the value that our show brings to your day, we would be incredibly grateful if you could take a moment just to leave us a rating and or review. Your feedback not only helps us to improve the show, but it also makes a huge difference in helping more listeners like you to find us.
Ryan Dunn [00:01:03]:
Here's how you can leave a rating and or review. On Apple Podcasts, open the Apple Podcasts app on your phone or computer, search for Compass, Finding Spirituality in the Everyday, and then scroll down to the ratings and reviews section. Kept the stars to rate the podcast. I mean, 5 is great. If you have a moment, then write a few words about what you enjoy about the show in the review section. On Spotify, what you need to do is launch the Spotify app on your mobile device and head to our podcast page. Below the podcast title, you'll see a rating section represented by stars. Tap that to rate us.
Ryan Dunn [00:01:39]:
Although Spotify doesn't yet support written reviews, the stars are much appreciated and they do count on YouTube. You head over to the YouTube app. You find our channel, which is compass podcast, finding spirituality in the everyday after watching an episode, hit that like button to show your support and leave a comment to tell us and other viewers what you thought your comments help increase our visibility on YouTube and they grow our community. And don't forget to subscribe and click the little bell icon. So you never miss out on our content. All right, back on topic peacemaking with John Pavlovitz. I came across John a number of years ago through Twitter, where John affected a persona of saying the tough things that need to be said at the time he was a former youth minister who had, I believe just left the professional ministry and was working on finding his way into whatever it was that came next. And since then he's found his way.
Ryan Dunn [00:02:37]:
He's published several books, including the popular, a bigger table, and has become recognized as a voice calling for people of faith to represent grace in the world. He's fun to talk with. I had a good time. I think you will too. So let's talk with John Pavlovitz. John Pavlovitz is a writer, pastor, a speaker, former heavy metal musician, or maybe it's not former. Do you still dabble in the dark arts a little bit?
John Pavlovitz [00:03:04]:
I I'll I'll leave that for later when people have, grown to love me a little bit so they won't reject me right out.
Ryan Dunn [00:03:10]:
I don't know. It could be an entryway for some. In fact, I wanted to offer you this. Normally, we start these interviews with the question, how goes it with your soul? I wanted to throw a caveat into yours. Can you think of a heavy metal song that describes the state of your soul?
John Pavlovitz [00:03:28]:
You know, crazy train pops out first. I mean, that's that's almost the first thing that's probably really sad and scary. You know, I think about that. And my my genre was a little bit more what what they would have called hair metal back in the day. So a little kinder, gentler version. So I was more in the, you know, the Bon Jovi, Aerosmith place. But, yeah. So you 2 songs tend to generally speak to my, spiritual condition.
John Pavlovitz [00:04:00]:
And, so I'd say, still haven't found what I'm looking for is probably always there with me.
Ryan Dunn [00:04:07]:
Yeah. Okay. A man on a constant journey of realization. I get it. I feel like a lot of our listeners are probably there as well. This is the kind of space that we work in on The Compass podcast.
John Pavlovitz [00:04:17]:
Yep.
Ryan Dunn [00:04:17]:
Well, we're touching base because this past month, you released a new book called Worth Fighting For. Certainly within the United Methodist space that I come out of, we're engaging in some of the conversations that you really talk around and allude to with the book. So it's timely at least for our little slice of the world. And it's timely in general as we head towards another election season as well where certainly the rhetoric is gonna get pretty polarized too. So can you share a little bit about why you felt like this was the time to bring this book out? What led you to penning it together for us in releasing it?
John Pavlovitz [00:04:54]:
Yeah. You know, I've been traveling the country, Ryan, for about the past decade and speaking to people through in churches, in political organizations, at humanist conferences, atheist events, and there is a similar exhaustion running through really all of the stories that I hear because we have been in this place of elevated urgency, I think, for the past 8 or 9 years, and we've gone through this planetary health crisis, and we have, of course, the political tribalism. And because of that, I think everyone's been carrying far more than their bodies and brains are equipped to. And so I wanted the book just to be a resource for people who are needing, as I say, a hug around the neck or a kick in the behind, whichever on the day that they require. And it's just meant to be an encouragement to empathetic people who are growing tired.
Ryan Dunn [00:05:49]:
Well, you've given this book to the rest of us, but certainly, you've been engaged in this work of both bridge building, but also the prophetic work of speaking truth, which can be contentious. So how were you able to keep the energy up to not just tire out or for you yourself to burn out?
John Pavlovitz [00:06:08]:
I think it's a it's a daily, almost hourly challenge to do this, Ryan. And I think part of it, it's it's living sort of a holistic experience, looking at the totality of your life, your physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, and relational health, and making sure that you're attending to all of those as best you can. You know, I talk a lot about 2 wounds that we are primarily responsible for, the wounds of the world and the wounds that we sustain attending to those wounds. And I think many people are better at the former than the latter. We're really good at seeing the injustices and the suffering and and trying to help people, But we often don't see the toll that it's taking on us. So there's kind of this dual trajectory in the book and in the work that I do.
Ryan Dunn [00:06:59]:
Yeah. Has there been an instant lately? An instance where you've been particularly reenergized or kind of re granted a sense of hope for what you push for in terms of how people are building relationships with one another, especially across some ideological divides?
John Pavlovitz [00:07:19]:
I think the the hope and the encouragement comes where you realize that regardless of what is happening politically, theologically, what what regardless of the big systemic ills, that we always have, I think, 2 things. We have proximity and agency. And so we're always somewhere, and we can always do something. And as elemental as that sounds, I think that helps keep us encouraged if we can remember that. So for me, it's getting out into my local community or getting time with people in local communities around the country and just hearing the stories and seeing what's actually happening all over. And I I often call myself, rather than a pastor or an author, a collector of stories, a war correspondent, if you will. And and it's in those those stories that people tell me that I realize there's just so much beautiful work happening that might not trend on social media, that might not make the news or be on people's minds every day. But we need to take you know, to be attentive to those things because that's where the encouragement comes.
Ryan Dunn [00:08:25]:
Yeah. How do you gather those stories? Do you have specific practices? Especially, I'm thinking about stories from people who maybe don't share all the same ideological or theological views as you do?
John Pavlovitz [00:08:39]:
I I think that's the challenge, because there there's a posture of curiosity that I talk about. That's one of the keys to making sure we're navigating differences well. And that posture of curiosity is really easy to have with people that we have natural affinity toward. And, you know, I talk a lot about the fact that we're all compassionate to some degree, but we are often selectively compassionate. And so for me, it's about paying attention to the small kind of openings that I have as I meet people in the street or I'm traveling or I'm at a, you know, a grocery store, And and just being open to having kind of that follow-up question or that follow-up statement that can lead us into a conversation with people that we might not meet any other way. Because I think it's in those environments that people don't have their defense postures up. They're not ready to have a battle, which is why it's so difficult to have those conversations on social media because everyone is prepared for the confrontation. And so there's a disarming that happens when we meet people in sort of normal circumstances, and they might be more open to having a conversation.
John Pavlovitz [00:09:51]:
And we also might be, gentler in our approach to people. So it's really about paying attention.
Ryan Dunn [00:09:58]:
Yeah. Well, you're active on social media and certainly not shy about sharing opinions and viewpoints on social media. Have you ever found within that space that you are able to engage in some of this kind of cross cultural isn't the right word, but, you know, cross perspective dialogue that you're talking about?
John Pavlovitz [00:10:18]:
It happens. I think what I tend to have realized over the last few years doing this work and this this online work predominantly is that I'm often it's not about necessarily the conversation I may be having with another person or that exchange alone. It's the the thousands of people who may be looking on at that conversation. And so there might be people who are not in, sort of they they may be reachable. They may be part of what I call the humane middle. And so they're they're looking at that conversation, and they're hopefully learning something in that exchange. And so that's where I see it happening, and I also see it happen over time where people will reach out to me and say, hey. I crossed paths with you here 7 years ago, and we were, you know, diametrically opposite.
John Pavlovitz [00:11:08]:
And I have slowly come to realize some things or see things differently. And that's the gratifying part of it. I think in this work, really in all our lives, we want to see change happen instantly with people. And it's really it's really gonna happen incrementally, and we may not even be present. And so the best we can do is kind of offer something in the moment that we hope will take root down the line.
Ryan Dunn [00:11:33]:
Yeah. The change I don't know. Especially at the point where we are right now, Some of us may be wondering whether the change will ever happen. Right? And you probably go through days like that as well, especially since so much of your work is dedicated towards kind of creating this change. Are there some personal practices that you employ on a daily basis? Or just some ways that you kind of reengage with the core meaning of your work and identify some of the hope behind what you're doing?
John Pavlovitz [00:12:03]:
I I think it's really important for all of us to, there what I call the, 2 step dance of engaging and withdrawing. And so there there's the work we do and the confronting of injustices and the speaking out, and then there's the withdraw. They're moving back to the places of silence and solitude and prayer and meditation. And for me, you know, that was always something I saw in the life of Jesus. You know, there's all those stories in the gospels where they can't find him and, you know, they're, you know, 230 healing Jesus. Where are you? And he is in a solitary place praying. And I think it's because then he could recalibrate. And for all of us, we need to pull out of the fray and really check our motives.
John Pavlovitz [00:12:44]:
What am I intending to do today, and is it still, aligned with the mission that I feel like I have when I get up in the morning? And because we all have a story that we tell ourselves about who we are, about, you know, our own goodness and our own efforts to be agents of healing in the world. But then we have to look at the daily existence that we have and is are those aligned? So I think that helps, that engagement and then the withdraw. And most of us are engaging, engaging, engaging all the time, never pulling back. And so that's a huge part. That pause is so critical.
Ryan Dunn [00:13:17]:
Do you have some favorite ways of practicing the pause?
John Pavlovitz [00:13:21]:
You know, for me, it's it's it's always gonna be nature because I think when I can remove a lot of the evidence, sadly, of of mankind, of that tribalism, of the the media and the noise, when I can pull back and get some quiet, then I can really say, okay. Given, you know, there's a story that I'm seeing on the in the news, and some of that story is true, but much of it is not. So am I how can I right size the bad news? And so when I pull out into nature or get some time with people that I love or just simply, you know, enjoy life, whether it's something that you you know, I really going to your favorite restaurant or listening to music you love or looking at art. It's really can help ground you and sort of, just recenter you. Okay. Yeah.
Ryan Dunn [00:14:09]:
Again, we're talking with John Pavlovitz, author of Worth Fighting For, Finding Courage and Compassion When Cruelty is Trending. John, how has faith really influenced your approach towards facing down cruelty and fostering compassion?
John Pavlovitz [00:14:23]:
Well, you know, Ryan, I think growing up, I grew up in the Catholic church, and so that there was a god story that I grew up with. There was this story of Jesus and and Jesus' teachings and what that kingdom was supposed to be supposedly gonna look like or should look like here and started, you know, seeing that I I wasn't seeing that lived out in local faith communities and in the communities that I was part of, and so I drifted from that, for a long time and then got pulled back into organized Christianity when I started volunteering for a church. And and for me, it was once I saw communities actively trying to live out the Sermon on the Mount as best they could, that was for me the path. And so it's always been about filtering everything I see and do through the lens of that sort of compassionate activist heart of Jesus. And so while that is central to what I do and the work that I do, I realize that not everyone shares that perspective. So it's finding the commonalities in my faith tradition and other faith traditions and in people who have no religious affiliations at all. What are the the common things, the elemental stuff? And that's where I try to do much of my work now.
Ryan Dunn [00:15:40]:
I really appreciated it when you shared within the book, in a very authentic way, some of the questions that you had about having a Christian identity, whether that was something that you really did choose for yourself or, like, for a lot of us, if your identity as a Christian was because you had just always been Christian. Can you talk a little bit about that, and how does that shape your perspective now?
John Pavlovitz [00:16:05]:
Well, I think we we all have a a story, faith based or not, that we inherited from the people who raised us, and we have these lenses that have formed because of the churches we were a part of growing up and the life experiences that we've had. And so we we don't don't often stop to realize that the story has been something that we we grew up into, so we really weren't even aware of it. And so I think there's something really important and beautiful about trying to step out outside of the story that we came from and just ask questions about it, whether or not it's still valid for us or where are our points of connection or where or where are our points of disagreement and being okay to wrestle with those things. And the the sort of examined life or the examined spirituality, I think, is critical. If you're going to have 1, you should be continually wrestling with it and which has led me to often saying that I fight with and for my faith tradition simultaneously. And, but I think that's a good place to be. I think that's the place all spiritual people should be.
Ryan Dunn [00:17:07]:
You know, and it's kind of this common thread through the Abrahamic faiths. Right? Where so much of, you know, the identity of Israel is one who wrestles with God. The Islamic tradition is it's kinda termed the struggle. Right? And even within the Christian tradition, we don't have that terminology. But even still, there's a call towards wrestling. There's a call towards questioning and maybe even skepticism to a degree. Yeah.
John Pavlovitz [00:17:33]:
I think you look at the parables of Jesus and you see him inviting people to sort of enter a a picture story and just try to realize you know, to place themselves in another life or another human being or, you know, in someone at the side of the road, needing help. And so it's it's inherent in all. I think we have built a modern religion on what we believe or don't believe or maybe where we feel certain. You know, certainty is treasured in a lot of churches, and I think doubt, wrestling, and questioning are really where the where the growth happens. And so, never well, I'm never afraid because I'm always cognizant of the fact that God is not intimidated by my questions or my vacillation or even my lack of faith on some days. Only people are made insecure by those things, and so we should be okay in the presence of whatever God would be to ask anything.
Ryan Dunn [00:18:28]:
Mhmm. Has there been an interaction recently that just gives you hope to maybe continue this work into the next week and then the week beyond?
John Pavlovitz [00:18:37]:
Let's see. I you know, I I was at a church in Minnesota last week, and I've been working I've I've done 4 visits to this church because they actually went through COVID, had all the difficulties that all communities have had. And then coming out of COVID, they were, victims of an act active arson, and they lost their church every all the whole building, everything. And so they had to decide, well, given all that we've been through, do we even wanna carry on? Can we even do this? And so they invited me to sort of reimagine what the church could be like knowing all the things that they learned, and now they weren't beholden to a building or to a system. And that's what we've been doing. And so I've had hundreds of stories come out of that of people just saying, we used to do it this way, but it's okay. We're not afraid to try something that is completely different because we know that, you know, God is still in that creative mode, and we can still express the love of God. And so that's one of the things that really encouraged me recently.
Ryan Dunn [00:19:35]:
Yeah. That's exciting. So, well, we don't need to get into their story. Maybe we'll reflect this back to your story. What does church look like for you? Or maybe what does the ideal church look like for you?
John Pavlovitz [00:19:47]:
That's a great question. You know, I'm fortunate, Brian, doing this work that I'm I'm invited by, you know, really beautiful communities, whether they're, you know, mainline or they're more progressive. And there's people who are really asking tough questions about how can the church really be relevant, how can it speak into days like this, and what does the church have to do to overcome this sort of rising presence of a malevolent Christianity that they see out there, that people see that's exclusionary? And so I think for me, it's always about the the church is always going to exist. It may not be in a building for an hour on Sunday. You know? That that model has been slowly, you know, disappearing from the patterns of life that people have. And then you and you know, the pandemic comes along and people learned different rhythms of their lives. So I'm never gonna be afraid that the church is gonna disappear, but it's gonna be less obviously visible because you may not have a place to go and a group of people that are gonna count how many are there. It's really in the organic expressions of people who are of faith, where they live, where they study, where they shop.
John Pavlovitz [00:21:01]:
And those relationships that they're building and those sort of alternative communities are where the church, I think, will be moving forward. You know, there are always going to be people who want that traditional experience, but more and more, it's just people who say I have these values, and I wanna live them out individually and collectively. And that is how I express that's how the church is manifested.
Ryan Dunn [00:21:23]:
Yeah. Cool. Well, for those who are maybe curious about the Christian faith but have been uncomfortable with the traditional, quote, unquote, traditional sense of church and certainly all the package that kinda baggage that comes along with that when we start talking about patriarchy and silencing of the abused and that kind of thing. What kind of advice would you offer to someone to help them explore their spirituality a little bit?
John Pavlovitz [00:21:53]:
Well, first thing I would say is all the misgivings you have and the tensions and the questions are are things that I have and that many people have because I think you can't if you're self aware and you're aware of what's happening in the world and you're a person of any sort of empathy, you can look and realize the truth that, you know, the American evangelical church, the white church in America has been responsible for so much injustice. The the question becomes, how can I differentiate that from the teachings and the life of Jesus as expressed in the gospel stories? So I just invite people to to go into one of those, you know, biographies of Jesus just begin to read what he said and what he did and and ask questions about where I find truth in that. Whether I find where I find something that feels, like it's it's an expression of humanity that I can buy into. So it's not about joining a system or signing on to a religion. It's just do these teachings and these words, do they resonate in me or or not? And if they do, then to just read a little more. I mean, that for me is, the the conflict, you know, over the last 2000 years. I think there is a huge mission drift with so much of the church, and so it doesn't even recognize the thing that it began as. So do do your best to kind of find some spots in there, and then look for places where people are genuinely trying to express these teachings in a way that is redemptive and life giving.
Ryan Dunn [00:23:25]:
Tell us about the mission drift. I'm curious. I've heard that in some places.
John Pavlovitz [00:23:30]:
Yeah. Mission drift is often associated with organizations where there's a founder and there's a group of people who begin this organization, this business. And over time, as new people come in, maybe they aren't as steeped in the the whys of that organization existing. And so little by little, it begins to lose the heart, the DNA of why it began. And I think the church is a huge victim of that simply because it keeps splintering, and there's new denominations. And even one faith community evolves and people leave. So it's continually looking back and saying, why do we exist in the first place? If if we want to go back and say, what is our reason for being, and are we still living that out? Do we still even agree with that sentiment? And if we do, how are we gonna express that now in this very new environment with all the urgency that there is, existing here?
Ryan Dunn [00:24:25]:
Thanks for that. I I know that was a little bit off topic, but to draw us back on though, you mentioned empathy just a few moments ago. And that's really kind of the key point of a lot of what you're calling people towards, just to take a stance of empathy and listening. Have there been some instances recently when you've been surprised by empathy in a way in a way that you felt a sense of identification with somebody in a surprising way?
John Pavlovitz [00:24:53]:
I I think, you know, empathy at its best recognizes that we are all sort of under the same pressures, and I think those pressures are grief, fear, and loneliness. I think those three kind of forces are always at play regardless of our political affiliations or religious traditions. And so it's trying to be aware that everyone is sort of under duress. We're all experiencing the collateral damage of being human. And so I find that when I meet someone and their politics and their religion is not disclosed and I meet them in a place of human to human and we find commonalities, that's the place where I I feel good because I realize the other stuff, as important as it is to us, is not the elemental stuff. The elemental stuff is what do we love? What do we fear? What do we desire for our lives? And so that happens all the time, and it's only then when you say, okay. But now I know what how you vote, or now I know the church that you're part of. And does that begin to pull away, you know, people? And so that's the constant battle.
Ryan Dunn [00:26:05]:
Well, to wear the hat of Andrew Carnegie for a moment, you know, winning friends and influencing people. Do you have any tips or tricks or resources for kind of quickly finding that point of commonality?
John Pavlovitz [00:26:17]:
I I had an art teacher back in, when I was a graphic design student, and I was an art director as my first career. And one day he said to us he brought us up to look at a still life that we were getting ready to to draw. And he said, the job of the artist is to show people the beauty and the ordinary things that they have lost sight of the beauty of. And so he brought us up real close, and he said, take these things and study them and look at how the light hits them and whether they're smooth or rough or cold or warm. And and then when you've become a student of what you're drawing, then you can find the thing that you wanna share in that. And I say think we have to become students of other people, constantly asking questions, constantly in that posture of curiosity and realizing that we always have something more to learn about someone, or we always have something that we can learn about how to be a better human even from someone we disagree with. There's there's always something there if we're willing to linger long enough, to to learn that.
Ryan Dunn [00:27:19]:
Mhmm. Well, John, thanks for offering those tips and for bringing people your perspective. What's next for you?
John Pavlovitz [00:27:26]:
You know, I'm not quite sure. I always have an idea, but I've learned doing this work over the last 10 years, especially, is that I never I hold my convictions tightly, but the, expression of those loosely. So I'm doing some writing on grief right now on the universal grieving that we all experience. And so doing some writing on that. I've got an online community where we're having conversations about grief and about politics, and I'm working on possibly a children's book. And so there's a lot of really exciting things. And then we've got this sort of election little stuff going on in November. So So I just try to get up every day and be useful and offer my best to what's in front of me and see what happens.
Ryan Dunn [00:28:08]:
Cool. If you have a little bit more time, tell us about that online community. What kind of work is going on there?
John Pavlovitz [00:28:15]:
Yeah. It's called empathetic people network. And really, it came out of the fact that, you know, I I had this experience, local church pastor, ended up getting fired from a community because I was outspoken on issues of race and sexuality, and then had a blog post go viral and had this just influx of attention and opportunity. And so but what I realized was people were assembling around my writing, religious and non religious people. They had those commonalities, that we've talked about earlier, but I didn't have a way to connect them outside of just reading the writing. And so we created empathetic people network as a way. It's a it's a closed private social media platform where people can join and have these conversations about politics, religion, you know, depression, grief, and not have to worry about trolls or bots or ads. And it's just great because we've got rooms where we're talking about parenting or we're discussing current events, and it's just a really beautiful expression of what what you talked about earlier.
John Pavlovitz [00:29:20]:
This to me is the church. It's people coming together to share life, and it's not a building, but it's definitely true relationship. And, so that's what what's happening there. It's really exciting.
Ryan Dunn [00:29:32]:
Do you get a sense that there is a connection of people from across some ideological spaces connecting through the empathetic people network?
John Pavlovitz [00:29:41]:
There there is, and where I find it happens is in those those universal, you know, struggles. So the grief writing has been a way for me to reach people in a way because that is universal. And when people want to express something, you know, loss is not loss is bipartisan, and it's it's it's interfaith. And so that that is as difficult as grief is, it's it allows me a doorway into people's lives that I might not have any other way.
Ryan Dunn [00:30:12]:
Cool. And all of that stuff can be found through your website, which is easily enough, jonpavlovitz.com. Right?
John Pavlovitz [00:30:20]:
Yeah. If you can spell my name, there aren't a lot of us out there, so you'll probably reach me.
Ryan Dunn [00:30:25]:
Cool. Well, John, thanks for being here and sharing your perspectives with us. It means so much.
John Pavlovitz [00:30:31]:
Oh, Ryan. It's been a joy. Thanks for the work you're doing, and I hope we get to talk again soon, man.
Ryan Dunn [00:30:36]:
Alright, my friend. Thank you for being a part of our Compass conversation and community, and we look forward to continuing to explore spirituality in the everyday alongside you. You might want to listen to another episode of compass. I highly recommend it. And if you like this episode, then I recommend episode number 130, that's called Faith Vacations and Lostness with Debbie Thomas. Or another good episode would be number 123. That's called nice church, not nice patriarchy. That's with Liz cool as Jenkins.
Ryan Dunn [00:31:08]:
There's plenty in that episode about gracefully speaking truth to corrupt systems of power. And again, while you're listening, leave a rating and or review the compass podcast is brought to you by United Methodist Communications and that's all for this week. We're going to be back again with a new episode in 2 weeks time so I will chat at you then. Peace.
