Are you ready to explore the intersections of artificial intelligence and spirituality? Join us on the latest episode of Compass as we dive into the impact of AI on the Christian spiritual journey.
We navigate the potential benefits and pitfalls of integrating AI into our everyday spirituality, play around with AI Jesus entities, and hear how Jay Cooper and the congregation of Violet Crown City Church have utilized artificial intelligence as part of their community life.
Here are a few key takeaways from this episode:
- AI can serve as a powerful tool for exploration and learning.
- It's essential to remain skeptical of the limitations and potential biases AI may carry.
- The Christian spiritual journey is a beautiful, messy, and deeply personal endeavor. It is not about finding easy answers or relying on technological shortcuts.
Listen and subscribe: Apple Podcasts / Spotify / YouTube / Amazon / iHeart
Episode Notes
Rev. Jay Cooper is lead pastor at Violet Crown City Church in Austin, Texas. You can check out their artificial intelligence-designed worship experience and sermons in their faith and AI series through their YouTube channel:
This episode features a clip excerpted from Ask_Jesus.twitch--which is an AI-based representation of Jesus. Warning that this is an open forum and sometimes questions posed to AI Jesus can be vulgar or nonsensical.
Ryan also used a text AI Jesus app in this episode. The app he used is called "Text with Jesus" -- and for a fee it makes other AI versions of the Apostles and early church leaders available, as well.
And you should check out Nelson Musonda's DelMethod blog. This post on AI and church is very enlightening. (And another semi-shameless plug for Ryan's "Pastoring in the Digital Parish" podcast, this episode features a conversation with Nelson.)
In this episode:
(00:00) Exploring our use of artificial intelligence
(02:35) AI can inform Christian practice; limitations explored.
(06:52) AI Jesus on Twitch answers theological questions with patience and humor.
(09:14) Texting with AI Jesus
(11:55) Meeting with Jay Cooper and AI in Violet Crown City Church
(19:49) What happens in AI-generated worship
(26:36) AI and messy spirituality
(32:39) Artificial intelligence replacing pastors?
(43:47) New technology has always faced skepticism. AI can be helpful in certain areas, like communication and SEO.
(47:14) AI and prevenient grace
Related episodes
- The Force and the Final Frontier
- Blessing our messy everyday lives
- Pastors of TikTok
- Experiencing God in nature
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This episode posted on September 20, 2023
Episode Transcript:
Ryan Dunn [00:00:01]:
Hi. This is the Compass podcast where we connect the divine to the everyday. My name is Ryan Dunn.
Michelle Maldonado [00:00:07]:
And I'm Michelle Maldonado.
Ryan Dunn [00:00:09]:
And we are connecting the divine to everyday things like technology specifically, artificial intelligence. So, Michelle, this may be, like, short question with a long detailed answer. So we'll just try to sum this up as best we can, but how have you used AI so far?
Michelle Maldonado [00:00:29]:
So I've given it several shots, both personally and professionally. I'll start professionally. I just wanted to see what it could do. So I'd be asking I've asked questions like generate goals for my job to see if it could. It could, which is really freaky since it doesn't exactly know what I do.
Ryan Dunn [00:00:52]:
Right. Yeah. Maybe it could tell the rest of it. You know, like, sometimes people ask us what our job descriptions are, and we're a little bit like, Yeah. So could it define that for you?
Michelle Maldonado [00:01:04]:
It almost could. I had to do minimal editing, which really freaked me out. Like, how how does it know? And personally, I've used it, a couple of friends who aren't very text savvy have asked me like, hey. You know, I need a cover letter or I need, a summary of a book, you know, things like that. So I I generated for them. And the cover letter 1 really let me know what this thing is capable of because all I told it was a very vague description. And, the they they they wanted a position at the university. So I typed in the university, and it was so specific to that job role. Because I guess it just pulled the job link.
Ryan Dunn [00:01:52]:
Okay.
Michelle Maldonado [00:01:53]:
And it was very, very specific, and it was awesome. I was like, oh.
Jay Cooper [00:01:58]:
We have
Michelle Maldonado [00:01:58]:
followed this in the in the memory bank.
Ryan Dunn [00:02:02]:
Like, in an unsettling way, like, oh, it knows too much. Short Yes. Intimidated in that regard? Okay.
Michelle Maldonado [00:02:09]:
Yeah. It knows too much. Like, I'm I'm fascinated by technology, but I keep finding myself when I'm in front of it, and I see its capabilities, I kinda, like, shy away. Like, this is too too much. But maybe it's because we've all seen the movies and it's our pop culture to fear the AI in the robot. So I'm trying to keep that in check too.
Ryan Dunn [00:02:35]:
Yeah. I I found it useful as like a jumping off point for a lot of things. But I've been a little slow to to really adapt it full on word for word in in what it's often provided. And we're gonna get into that a little bit. In in this episode, actually, we're gonna explore how AI can or cannot help us on our spiritual journeys and and really help us to, like, inform our own spiritual or Christian practice. And so we're gonna hear from a pastor whose church has kind of gone through a few processes with AI. Here's some warnings from other Christian practitioners about what, what AI can and cannot do. But I wanted to start off this episode in exploring the possibilities and limitations of AI. By letting AI just run wild on this thing. And specifically, I wanted it to make my life easy and provide a podcast script. So it has done that. And in this case, it has done it without any editing at all, Michelle. So, we can We're gonna roll into this thing. I asked it specifically for, a two person podcast script. Relating AI to, the practice of Christian spirituality. And, and this is what it turns out. And I do have to note this was this was fascinating to me. So I tried several different AI content producing platforms. And they all I gave them all the same prompt. They all turned out the exact same thing. So
Michelle Maldonado [00:04:18]:
I
Ryan Dunn [00:04:19]:
think what's what's going on there is that we have these, engines that are built on top of the same platform, which is probably, you know, chat GPT, and they're they're just finding other ways to to implement that for something specific. So so, actually, I think what we're using here is the script that, specifically came out of CHAP GPT. Let's roll into it. This is AI produced Compass podcast. Hello, and welcome to the Compass Podcast. I'm your host, Ryan Dunn. And today, we'll be diving into the fascinating topic of artificial intelligence in Christian spirituality. In this episode, we'll explore how AI intersects with religious beliefs its potential impact on Christian practices and the ethical considerations surrounding its development. Joining us today is Michelle Maldonado, an expert in theology and technology. Welcome to the show, Michelle.
Michelle Maldonado [00:05:17]:
Thank you, Ryan. It's a pleasure to be here.
Ryan Dunn [00:05:19]:
To get us started, could you provide us with an overview of what artificial intelligence actually is?
Michelle Maldonado [00:05:27]:
Skynet. No. I'm just gonna say. Absolutely. Artificial intelligence or AI refers to the development of computer systems that can perform tasks typically requiring human intelligence. These systems are designed to analyze data, make decisions, learn from experience, and even interact with human in the way that's reminiscent of human conversation.
Ryan Dunn [00:05:55]:
That's impressive. Now I I feel like we should backed up late. Like, I should have introduced you as doctor Michelle Maldonado. I don't even know it. Like, your doctorate is not in that specific topic. Still as long as we're platforming you as the expert here, Doctor Michelle Maldonado, how does AI intersect with Christian spirituality? Are there any particular areas where these two realms come together?
Michelle Maldonado [00:06:20]:
Indeed. There are several points of inter intersection one such area is the use of AI and religious practices. For example, we've seen chatbots program with religious knowledge that can answer theological questions or provide spiritual advice. Oh, that's weird. Addis additionally, AI consists in studying religious texts and even generate sermons or prayers based on patterns and themes found within these texts.
Ryan Dunn [00:06:52]:
So a little tangent here from our AI produced script. This is where it, like, human creativity comes in that you just can't replace, I I think. Because, one of the things that you mentioned in there, Michelle, was that There are chatbots programmed with religious knowledge that can answer theological questions. One of the very popular ones is on Twitch right now. It's just called Asp Ask Jesus. Ask underscore Jesus. And, it is kinda cool in that you have this AI portraying the part of Jesus, and you can ask it questions. And some of the questions are just meant to be silly or funny or they're trying to trip up the algorithm in the AI a little bit. So people ask it for help with homework or to retail a biblical story with silly names. And one of the amazing things, though, that I I find about, Jesus reacting to those things is that AI Jesus hopefully, like, real Jesus never runs out of patience. Like, you always get a legit answer from from AI Jesus. It's never just like, your question is stupid, and I'm not gonna answer that. Yeah. But it also always kinda pivots to make some kind of point about a spiritual truth. So I I have a clip for us to consider on that. We're somebody's asking it just kind of an off the wall question, and you can listen for the way that it makes the the Jesus chuke here. And we do kinda have to get on beyond if you were watching the video, like, the representation of Jesus. Michelle, you mentioned that,
Michelle Maldonado [00:08:32]:
he's taller than me.
Ryan Dunn [00:08:34]:
Yeah. Yeah. Maybe not the most accurate.
Ask_Jesus AI [00:08:37]:
Jesus, what is the best food for the human body? Hello, Matallica 29. It's great to see your curiosity about health. The best foods for the human body are usually those that are natural, like fruits, vegetables, whole grains, and lean proteins. It's also important to remember that balance and moderation in all things are crucial. Consider a rich variety of foods abundant in nutrients, fiber, and good fats, but perhaps equally important is our spiritual sustenance, feeding our hearts and minds with love kindness and positive thoughts. Have a blessed day.
Ryan Dunn [00:09:14]:
It made it such a creative turn, though. Right? Yeah. That's really creative. Not only do you need to feed your body, but Here comes the Jesus juke. You have to feed your spirit as well. So I was playing around with some of these other AI Jesus representations. There's a there's an app where you can text Jesus, and and I did a little bit of that. And this is where I I feel like it's important to bring up a warning about what these, these apps are capable we just saw something that's kind of impressive in the way that it is creative in taking probably an out of context and silly question and and making a spiritual turn it. But, also, sometimes the information that it provides, it sounds authoritative, but it can be a little incomplete. So I used a text with Jesus app I asked her a question. I said a lady on the street stopped me and asked for money. How much should I give her? And Jesus came back and said it's wonderful. That you're considering helping someone in need in spiritual in in situations like this, it's important to be compassionate compassionate and generous. In the Bible, I talk about caring for the poor and those less fortunate. One particular verse that comes to mind is Matthew 542 where I said give to the one who asks you and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. While there isn't a specific amount mentioned in this verse, It emphasizes the spirit of giving with a willing heart. I encourage you to consider your means and give what you can without causing financial strain on yourself. Remember, it's not about the exact amount, but rather the love and compassion behind your gesture. May god bless your generosity. Star emoji. So that looks cool. Right, Michelle? I mean, kinda
Michelle Maldonado [00:11:07]:
That's a decent answer.
Ryan Dunn [00:11:09]:
Yeah. Found sound advice. However, the scripture that it references is pulled out of context. So I see that lesson in Matthew 5 is a way of overcoming evil and greed, and it's not really about so much about lending and helping hand. I think that Matthew Five speaks to overcoming evil with goodness and love. So it's specifically talking about somebody who's suing you. And and responding to to that suit. It's not really, I don't know, in this case, in that Matthew 5 case, Matthew 542 about generosity for the poor or downtrodden. So it's a cloudy out there.
Michelle Maldonado [00:11:51]:
Yeah. A brownie points for Jesus using emojis
Ryan Dunn [00:11:55]:
Yeah. Right? Yeah. It's it is striking, you know, when it refers itself to itself in the first person. Yeah. I mean, like, in an unsettling Like, I had a hard time actually saying that. So I don't hear it, mate. So, though, that's fun playing around with, ask Jesus app and we'll link to those on the show notes page. You can explore those yourself. Right? Michelle, shall we continue on with our AI generated script?
Michelle Maldonado [00:12:22]:
Yep. Let's see it.
Ryan Dunn [00:12:23]:
Okay. I think it's my turn here. That's interesting. Oh, wait. Yes. Okay. That's where we are. Yeah. That's interesting. However, there might be concerns among Christians about the role of AI in religious activities. What are some potential and ethical considerations that arise in this context.
Michelle Maldonado [00:12:43]:
Absolutely. Ethical considerations are crucial to address One key concern is the potential devaluation of human interaction experience while AI can offer guidance It cannot truly replace the role of personal relationships, community, and spiritual connection between humans and god. It's important to strike a balance between utilizing AI tools and maintaining the fundamental aspects of Christian's spirituality.
Ryan Dunn [00:13:15]:
That's a valid point. I mean, for real, that's a valid point. Now looking at a broader perspective, We know that AI has the potential to disrupt various industries and create significant societal changes. How might this affect Christian beliefs and practices?
Michelle Maldonado [00:13:32]:
Well, AI advancements can amplify Christian outreach, allowing messages of love compassion and faith to reach wider audiences through platforms like social media and online communities. However, There's also the risk of AI being programmed with biases or, distorted religious content. Which could impact the understanding and interpretation of Christian teachings. Additionally, the integration of AI into worship services or rituals must be done thoughtfully ensuring it doesn't overshadow the the core element of Christian spirituality.
Ryan Dunn [00:14:15]:
We're gonna hear all about that shortly with our friend, Jay Cooper, but first of all, continue with our AI generated script. Absolutely. Finding that balance is crucial. As we conclude this conversation, what advice would you give to our listeners who may be grappling with the implications of AI on their Christian beliefs?
Michelle Maldonado [00:14:36]:
I would advise listeners to approach AI with a critical mindset evaluating its potential benefits and dangers in light of their own spiritual understanding, keeping an open dialogue within their faith communities and seeking guide from religious leaders can provide valuable insight. Ultimately, Christians should remember that while AI may offer tools for knowledge and guidance, The essence of Christian spirituality lies in personal relationships, stewardship, and living out the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Ryan Dunn [00:15:13]:
Thank you, Doctor Maldonado, for shedding light on this thought provoking topic. It's been a pleasure having you on the show today.
Michelle Maldonado [00:15:20]:
Thank you, Ryan, for the opportunity. I enjoy our conversation and hope it sparks further discussion among your listeners.
Ryan Dunn [00:15:28]:
I do. Man, I want a little more feeling when you say I enjoyed our conversation. I was
Michelle Maldonado [00:15:33]:
trying to be an AI.
Ryan Dunn [00:15:35]:
Gotcha. I was just playing the part. I'm sure. Yeah. Well, we did, we did wanna see how this played out in Christian community, specifically what the the AI script just brought up about, putting AI into practice in the context of worship services and how it relates to ritual and, even even some of the theological aspects. So we were able to talk with pastor Jay Cooper from Violate Crown Church in Austin, Texas about what their congregation is up to in, in, well, exploring AI and actually using an AI generated service. So let's hear some of his thoughts. Pastor Jay Cooper has been playing around with artificial intelligence and its implications for the church community and Your context, Jay, is Violet Crown City Church in Austin, Texas. You've been doing a a series, like, sermon series worship series with artificial intelligence. What inspired this series?
Jay Cooper [00:16:40]:
I think playing around with is an accurate term for us to get started this morning as a, someone who is trained in seminary and not beyond that. I think, my experience is somewhat limited. However, the last month or so has been a crash course and, a great learning experience for me. So what in fired this time together, we're doing a 3 week series on AI and god, exploring the nature of truth and what is sacred, the potential, and the pitfalls of AI being used in a ministry setting. And so I got the idea maybe 6 months ago. We have some techie type software developers in the church and I just like to pepper them with questions and then seeing online kind of the proliferation of AI and just thinking, wow, this is going to really be part of every aspect of our life. And then naturally, my mind goes to what would it look like to use this in worship, you know, just your basic master thoughts on a Monday. Alright.
Ryan Dunn [00:17:56]:
So How can this make my life easier? Yeah.
Jay Cooper [00:17:59]:
Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. Mean, I'll get into that in a little bit. I actually have strong feelings against using any form of AI going forward in Sherman. Right? However, to me, y'all, the church seems to be light years behind generally on issues like this. We react with fear or we react with that won't affect me. Like, within these church walls, society should have a limited influence. Well, I could not disagree more. And so if there's an issue that's impacting the world, We really need to bring that into the church. I think it was Carl Bart who said back in the day, we need to preach for the Bible with one hand and a newspaper in the other. So let's update that to say a Bible in one hand and a smartphone. Yeah. I'm In the end. Yeah. So there you go. Let's see what discussion we can start in the church and even take that step of what would it look like if we brought AI into worship leading? And then chew mushroom cloud.
Ryan Dunn [00:19:29]:
Well, let's follow-up with that then. So you you did a kind of an introduction on AI and 1 worship service. And then this past Sunday, so fresh we haven't seen the results yet was the AI led worship service. How did it go?
Jay Cooper [00:19:44]:
That's a great question.
Ryan Dunn [00:19:45]:
I'm still pause. Formulating the
Jay Cooper [00:19:49]:
the response in my mind. Okay. So the 1st few weeks of planning it were very fun. You know, chat GPT, create an entire worship service that includes children's message called a worship, communion, liturgy, sermon, an original song based on the sermon and then, you know, following up with some prompts on each of those. So very fun, great conversations with people in the church. And then we come to yesterday, service time, and we've got like a local news reporter there. We're doing interviews. The story's kind of gotten out. On several, look, local news outlets. And it's all kind of amped up, and we have a good number of visitors. And I tried to preface the service about what we're doing, but then just let ai take the lead. Every word that was said for the next 45 or so minutes was AI generated. And, honestly, I started feeling more and more uncomfortable as the service went along. To to pray, it it started feeling more inauthentic, especially the sermon. And then my big worry as people were, you know, kind of giggling here and there and all that is, oh, god, am I making a mockery of Sunday morning worship. However, we had a big conversation as a church afterwards. We all gathered And the the response, that was not necessarily people's response. They thought it was a fantastic way to start a conversation about AI in the church. And they said, Jay, your job is safe and which, you know, would have been the mother of all regrets My wife
Ryan Dunn [00:22:04]:
has Kind of. Like, what why
Jay Cooper [00:22:08]:
why would you like, what if this is the Sunday they realize Wow. Jay's salary could be used for a
Michelle Maldonado [00:22:14]:
lot of other things.
Jay Cooper [00:22:18]:
But so A couple people I was shocked said they were able to worship. And a couple said they thought it was gonna be a train wreck. And it was not mixed mixed results. I I would probably say I had the biggest evolution of This is gonna be awesome to, okay, this is not something we'll be doing again. Now I don't wanna totally close myself off to what would AI look like in other ministry aspects, but Sunday morning worship is not one we'll continue with.
Ryan Dunn [00:23:00]:
Were there any elements of worship that just really felt out of place. They were total splinters to the flow of the the the breach of 5. I don't know.
Jay Cooper [00:23:13]:
So chat GPT is clearly very influenced by the prompts we give it. So I tried to do a prompt that was like, give us a traditional call to worship, a progressive communion liturgy. And and I thought all that was very interesting. It responded well. The the jokes were so in chat, GPT's defense, I did say things like work in some jokes to lighten the mood.
Michelle Maldonado [00:23:43]:
Mhmm.
Jay Cooper [00:23:43]:
The jokes. Okay. This one joke I thought was actually legit. It said I I was having chat GPT for the sermon to a self critique. I said, generate a sermon about how do Christians identify and discern truth in a world where AI is blurring truth.
Michelle Maldonado [00:24:03]:
Mhmm.
Jay Cooper [00:24:03]:
So AI is kind of doing a self critique, and one of the jokes it put out there was like the old saying, don't trust everything you read on the internet, especially if it's in comic sands. Actually, legit joke and the congregation just groaned. So and then there would be transitions like But then in all seriousness, folks, almost like a is this Mike on, like, stand up Indian? So those felt a little jarring. And the the sermon probably felt the most out of place. Because it was just, your traditional 3 point sermon information and fairly, fairly dry.
Ryan Dunn [00:24:55]:
Mhmm.
Jay Cooper [00:24:56]:
So that was the part where you know, obviously, no personal examples, kind of lacking in soul, kind of the invitation or challenge.
Michelle Maldonado [00:25:07]:
Yeah. So you mentioned that you also did communion with the AI because I that for me, I don't know, doing communion with Skynet no.
Jay Cooper [00:25:21]:
What is
Michelle Maldonado [00:25:21]:
that like? My
Jay Cooper [00:25:22]:
yeah. My friend was like, you better wear gala galais is because you are gonna be stretch down. Yeah. That part, the liturgy was actually good and interesting. So we are open and affirming community of faith. So I said write a progressive community and it said this table is open to people of all ages, nations, sexual orientations. And I thought, alright. So this is a really, beautiful understanding of in inclusive grace, all are invited. So I thought, you know, way to go, old chap buddy, you you nailed this one. We did serve communion in the same way we always do. And so I I think that felt familiar enough to people that it wasn't like I was dressed like in a a robot outfit or something crazy crazy like that. They just received. And so that was not as sacrilegious as I would expect?
Ryan Dunn [00:26:29]:
Well, in all the research that you've been doing leading up to this series, what has been something that surprised you?
Jay Cooper [00:26:36]:
I think the probably its ability to mimic human prayer Now it's still put in words like we beseech the that's not a general part of my Sunday morning. Vocabulary, and it it uses words that I generally are not part of my theology, like our final victory, and kind of, you know, emphasis on sovereignty. So I I guess The the most surprising thing is AI is, from my understanding, just a reflection of humanity. And so it's scraping all of our biases, our prejudice, our our faithfulness, our prayers that are a little messy. And so it it knocked AI down from its pedestal. I would say for me. It, you know, it really, god, what a interesting and fascinating technology but it's it's got a ways to go. And also, I guess another surprise is It does not come across as a Skynet type thing. It's more like a kind of a CP 30 kind of like kind of an annoying Yeah. And doing sidekick.
Michelle Maldonado [00:28:14]:
That is a fantastic analogy.
Jay Cooper [00:28:17]:
That speaks like an infinite number of languages, although it should be noted that I did ask it to write a prayer in speaking in tongues, and it said it could not. That tongues is a deeply personal experience. So, tried to bait it, but,
Ryan Dunn [00:28:34]:
Yeah. Oh. Yeah.
Michelle Maldonado [00:28:39]:
What is a fascinating answer for an AI?
Ryan Dunn [00:28:44]:
He said
Jay Cooper [00:28:46]:
We couldn't possibly be the first ones that have done this. Have you heard of other churches that are experimenting
Ryan Dunn [00:28:56]:
There was a church in Germany that, did an a allied service as well. I I think they kinda went through the similar process as you did with, asking chat GPT to generate the worship order. And, and and I believe that the results were somewhat similar that, like, they melt afterwards. Like, none of our we're not gonna be replaced by the robots anytime soon. Yeah. There was just something missing there. You know?
Jay Cooper [00:29:25]:
There was. And, you know, what our congregation members identified it as is they're just calling it the soul.
Michelle Maldonado [00:29:31]:
And I
Jay Cooper [00:29:32]:
think that's
Michelle Maldonado [00:29:33]:
part of
Jay Cooper [00:29:33]:
what I was trying to get at. You know, I tried to make it very clear that this is not just like click bait or some, you know, cheesy gimmicky event, but we're We're talking about the nature of what is what is sacred. Like for instance, if If I pray for you both, it feels hopefully authentic and then it has soul. If If AI generates a prayer for you, because it doesn't have soul, does that In authenticate the prayer? Per perhaps so. Maybe most people would just easily say Absolutely. That is a worthless prayer. I'm just trying to see how we can wrestle with those kind of questions.
Michelle Maldonado [00:30:30]:
Mhmm.
Ryan Dunn [00:30:31]:
Yeah. Well, so with with that question in mind then, like, What have you learned about AI in the the spiritual journey? Like, can it inform our spiritual journey? Have you found through this series that it has impacted the the practice of your faith community?
Jay Cooper [00:30:52]:
That's a great question. I I think my ready answer is no. It has not impacted them in a way that will affect their day to day spiritual practices. My hope is that it's planting seeds in me as well that, okay, I took this time to try to find experience something sacred and something that our assumption is has no sacred component at all. So then what if I carry that forward and in my workplace or anywhere else am I then practicing looking for the sacred in a place I would never look for it before or in my neighbor who's wearing that red hat that makes me just like go bonkers in terms of politics I would not expect now the this is just an example. Of someone that I would have difficulty aligning with politically. But then what if Okay, Jay. You assume you won't find the sacred in this conversation. Start looking for it. You know, don't limit god because that's what I'm doing every time I make these assumptions.
Ryan Dunn [00:32:18]:
We mentioned a strong warning about using AI and your sermon preparation. And what did you wanna unpack there?
Jay Cooper [00:32:31]:
Say that again, the strong.
Ryan Dunn [00:32:33]:
But you had some strong thoughts about moving forward with AI and and serving preparation.
Jay Cooper [00:32:39]:
So You know, messiness is part of the human condition. And I really believe that that needs to find its way into the sermon. So it the sermon more than anything has to be a reflection of the pastor's inner wrestling and also knowing their congregation, like when I'm preparing a message on, like, so and so is going through a divorce god. They are shattered. So and so has just experienced this incredible breakthrough moment with god. Those things all need to work their way into the message. And I hope it's spirit led in a way that speaks to someone. And so I think through sermon prep, god is trying to do something in the pastor's life, as a spiritual discipline. And I think the congregation needs to see that this is not polished. And the way the pastor prays is in a way that gives them permission, oh, okay. I don't have to say it in an eloquent way, I can just pray. And so Okay. If I found out I were part of a service where this pastor had prepared an AI sermon, I would feel a little duped And, yeah, I I could not, in my good integrity or trying to have good integrity preach a sermon that is anyone else's whether I find it online or whether I generate it by chat GPT. So sometimes if I just can't come up with anything for Sunday and it's a a terrible week and there was a funeral and everything, I just do my absolute best, but the thought of finding something online would be I could not deliver that message.
Ryan Dunn [00:34:53]:
Yeah. In our work, we hear a lot about, communicating authenticity. And and it sounds like this really leans into that, but it it is better to be authentic than it is to be published.
Jay Cooper [00:35:07]:
Right. I I I hope so. I hope so. Like, in in your would you say you've ever heard Someone preach a sermon without naming names that you thought was maybe found elsewhere, so to speak.
Ryan Dunn [00:35:24]:
Well, in a way that I don't know. I I've heard people drop anecdotes that are kind of a yeah.
Michelle Maldonado [00:35:30]:
You know?
Ryan Dunn [00:35:31]:
Oh, those have been around the block a few times. Like, I've heard those. Yeah. Yeah. And they can be a little disjointing in a way.
Jay Cooper [00:35:38]:
It was removed. Mhmm. Absolutely. Yeah. I think that's what the congregation responded. And I thought they shared some very kind words that what was missing is that they appreciate that I let them into my heart. I share from my heart, and I try to ask some probing questions. And so both of those were missing from the service. And, Michelle, I was telling Ryan a minute ago. I think the, you know, the big, before you popped in, the big take home is, you know, I think, you know, my job continues to be safe in such a way that I think maybe it was the best thing I could have done, and I'll receive a bump in salary. This year because, I I think it was helpful to show that this is not where our congregation has to go.
Michelle Maldonado [00:36:33]:
Yeah. And using the the AI too, it you can't control what theology they're pulling from. So that could get really messy and really tricky.
Jay Cooper [00:36:43]:
Yes. Exactly. Although one guy in our congregation was like, Geez, Jay, AI pulled more biblical references than you usually do in your sermons. And I was like, you, this is your last Sunday with us. Thanks for all. Oh, I should
Michelle Maldonado [00:37:02]:
say that,
Jay Cooper [00:37:04]:
you know, when it ran on the local news, we were all kind of lamenting that it had it didn't have emotion to it. The AI. Someone I don't know who it is, but they work with AI and ministry emailed me and they said, here are the she need to give it in order to bring out emotion in AI. Okay. No, Ryan. Yeah. I have not responded. I don't quite do. I don't know.
Ryan Dunn [00:37:38]:
I will shot first and then yeah.
Jay Cooper [00:37:41]:
Right.
Ryan Dunn [00:37:43]:
Well, we'll see. Alright. Well, pastor Jay, thank you so much for sharing your experiences with us and and you're kind of giving us a proxy way to to walk through this. This experience. So it's it's been fun to kinda watch and follow along and and others can too at, at your church's website, violetcrown.church.
Michelle Maldonado [00:38:07]:
Yes.
Ryan Dunn [00:38:07]:
Thanks so much.
Jay Cooper [00:38:08]:
Thanks for having me. I really enjoy y'all and appreciate your work.
Ryan Dunn [00:38:13]:
So besides the human disconnect, there are also some ethical concerns that, use in AI, use of AI in a Christian context can bring up. My friend Nelson Musanda from the Dell Method blog, somebody who I've talked to on my other podcast, pastoring in the digital parish, a little
Jay Cooper [00:38:33]:
Look to Ching
Ryan Dunn [00:38:34]:
them in there. And, and he wrote recently a blog post about using AI in a Christian context. And I I thought it was really probably important of us to bring up some of the reservations that he expressed. One of them being that there's a fear that AI could replace jobs that people used to do, which is is disconcerting from a, like, a justice aspect because it could lead to financial issues for people in places already struggling. That doesn't really fit our Christian values of helping helping those in need.
Michelle Maldonado [00:39:12]:
We're worried that AI could make social inequalities and unfairness, even worse. If the data used to teach AI programs is biased, then its decisions or predictions could also be biased. This means people might be treated differently just because of their race gender, etcetera, which goes against our beliefs of fairness and justice.
Ryan Dunn [00:39:38]:
Yep. Pastor Jay brought up some of the ways that that we can start to see this kind of infiltrate because he talked about how the AI was presenting language that he generally wouldn't use.
Michelle Maldonado [00:39:50]:
Sorry. Who's that? It's not my phone.
Ryan Dunn [00:39:53]:
Oh, I'll just I'll backtrack on that. Pastor Jay brought up some instances where we can see how that might kinda infiltrate some of the ways that we use AI because he had language that was presented within his worship service that he said he wouldn't normally use. So there are, you know, if there are ideas out there that the AI is scraping, predominantly, then it can, it can start to bleed through in some of the information that we're projecting. Like, I I think about pronouns and and god. Right? Most of our Christian literature uses the masculine pro now. I forgot. You know, that's something that I I've kinda moved away from, but, you know, we can begin to see, like, how this starts to re repeat itself Yeah. In, you know, exclusively using he and him for for a reference to god. So,
Michelle Maldonado [00:40:52]:
you know,
Ryan Dunn [00:40:53]:
and there there are other ways. I mean, that's just an example of ways that we can see, like, how how maybe, thoughts that aren't based in justice or fairness can start to bleed into what AI is representing. And then, of course, the third concern is that AI could be misused like creating weapons, they can act independently or they can spy on people. And this can lead to harm and go against the Christian belief of treating people with respect and kindness for sure.
Michelle Maldonado [00:41:20]:
Mhmm. Yeah. It's like a chainsaw. Sounds very impressive.
Ryan Dunn [00:41:25]:
It does.
Michelle Maldonado [00:41:27]:
It can clear out an area like a forest and make room for something new, like housing development. Tools can negatively affect people, and the environment if you don't use them safely and responsibly.
Ryan Dunn [00:41:41]:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, just the warning that, like, part of the message is the tool that we need to be aware of. So all these come from, again, from Nelson, Nusanda's Del Method blog and willing to that article on the, on the show notes.
Michelle Maldonado [00:41:57]:
The the concerns in general for AI, not just in the church, but outside too. Like, these AIs have a turn off button that these companies created. Because Mhmm. We've already seen, I think it was Google's AI that got too smart. It freaked everybody out and they turned it off.
Ryan Dunn [00:42:16]:
Yeah. Was that the example that, or or was it one on Twitter where, they they had used an AI. Yeah. And then went off the rails into, I mean, it was, like, into racist territory, wasn't it, where somebody had really kind of
Michelle Maldonado [00:42:33]:
Yeah.
Ryan Dunn [00:42:33]:
You served its, you know, and it needed to be pulled quickly. Yeah. Yeah. So we're not to the point yet. Are we aware? Where humans are are superfluous.
Michelle Maldonado [00:42:46]:
Mhmm.
Ryan Dunn [00:42:48]:
Okay. So we've kind of laid out the limitations of AI use in general, but specifically how it relates to our spiritual journeys. Michelle moving forward, do you see some ways that AI might help influence your spiritual journey for the positive?
Michelle Maldonado [00:43:07]:
I don't wanna cut it off completely. I'm I'm thinking back of when, you say maybe that was it the eighties? I I was born in 9 but from other stories I've heard when televangelism became a thing. Yeah. Everybody would say like, oh, that's not a real way to have church or experience spirituality. I don't wanna be a boomer in that sense. I wanna keep an open mind, but being careful in, like, these warnings that we just went through, knowing the limitations right now.
Ryan Dunn [00:43:47]:
Mhmm. Yeah. I wanna note that anytime new technology has been introduced, there's been that kinda that. So Right. Like, even even when they started translating the Bible into in the vernacular languages, people were like, woah. You know, this is What are we gonna need priests and pastors for if if everybody can read the Bible and that kind of stuff? So, you know, in the same way, and, of course, those roles are still Grevlin. Still here. And even with AI, I think AI can be useful as, like, a reference, but it is not a a formative things. I found it as particularly useful in in work when I wanna learn how to better communicate with the machine. Right? So there are certain parts of our lives that are driven by by machine learning, specifically when we're talking about, like, search engine optimization and getting things noticed on social media. Like, yeah, I can be really useful in telling me how to, communicate with that. It can also be useful in just quickly sharing various ideas. So if I wanna ask you a specific question, like,
Michelle Maldonado [00:44:55]:
you
Ryan Dunn [00:44:55]:
know, tell me about, John Wesley's thoughts on Praveenant Grace. It can distill that pretty quickly. It may not always be authoritative, but, it's a jumping off point. Right? So
Michelle Maldonado [00:45:08]:
I don't know.
Ryan Dunn [00:45:09]:
In a way is it, it's like the old fashioned encyclopedia just in a more interactive sense where you can ask it follow-up questions. Give me really cool and useful. I would love to see a way of developing AI that helps engage us in a spiritual practice around a like, a specific felt need. So, you know, I have periods of anxiety. Like, can can an AI app, give me times to pray? Can it can it maybe interface with my with my watch telling my heartbeat goes up and then give me a little kick notification that says, hey. Take a moment for mindfulness right now. That'd be really or giving me some scripture references for times like that. That that would be some use. Yeah.
Michelle Maldonado [00:45:59]:
Yeah. Really realistic. You full thing. Like, if that doesn't exist already, I bet in the next few years it will.
Ryan Dunn [00:46:07]:
Yeah. Yeah. So those are some of the things that get me excited about, like, drawing ai into use for spiritual practice. But also with the caveat of all the things that we brought up here that, you know, there are parts where it's just inauthentic. Or where some of the information that it represents is not accurate at all. So I've asked it a number of times to you, like, pull quotes together for me. And I found in all those cases that those quotes cannot be contributed or directly attributed to the people who the AI says said that. So, yeah, which may be the case with some of these Jesus apps as well. So just that caveat there. And to always be mindful of the context that it comes out of. So even when it's quoting scripture, That sounds great. Sometimes it may not be, like, the full context of scripture. Oh, cool. Well, Michelle, any final thoughts?
Michelle Maldonado [00:47:04]:
No final thoughts other than this is not SkyNet. I joke about it, but, you know, obviously, we've all had that fear instilled in us from pop culture.
Ryan Dunn [00:47:14]:
Boy, well, thanks so much for joining us on this spiritual journey to artificial intelligence and how it relates to, bringing the divine into the everyday. You know, I just brought up Praveenia grace, and this is the kind of grace that's present in our lives, but where we're cognitively aware of it, And, I feel like AI is such a platform for exploring convenient grace because even in, like, the the quotes from the Ask Jesus that we represented, like, it feels like they're, yeah, there is a way that grace is being communicated in those spaces. The AI is not aware of it. It's just parading back things that have already been written by you. But, but Grace is active in our lives as well. So, I hope that you're able to find that grace active in your live through the coming weeks, and Michelle and I will be back with another new episode of the company's podcast in a couple weeks. In the meantime, peace to you.
Michelle Maldonado [00:48:15]:
Goodbye.
